Illusionist Fog of Jeer spell - some questions

[True Neutral]

• For area effect spells like "Fog of Jeer" does the caster have control over who it affects?

• If not, is there any advantage given to fellow party members who know that is an illusion?

• If the caster is in the area of effect are they subject to it as well?

As an aside, for a third level spell that takes at least two rounds to cast, I'm having difficulty figuring out a time when it could be useful. Can anyone give me some advice on this? If it is supposed to be used in a battle, which it presumably is because it only lasts for rank rounds, what advantage does it give? Either your warriors are incurring the same penalties as your targets, or if you say cast it on another magic user or archer to make the Aggressive stance a disadvantage, all they have to do is take a couple steps to be outside the area of effect (which for some reason is visible) and make your two rounds of spellcasting a complete waste. I don't mean to just be negative, I would love to have a taunting style ability like this for my Windling Illusionist, but I feel like I shouldn't have to spend so much time just trying to find a purpose for a third circle spell, particularly when there are so few to choose from in the first place.

[etherial]

No, Yes, Yes. If a spell affects all targets in an area, it affects all targets within the area. One prime example of what spells like this can be used for is zone control. If you have a doorway and want to slow people going through it or jam people up in it, giving them a -5 to their Physical Defense sounds like a great way to do it.

[The Undying]

As etherial says, sometimes it's not really about inflicting effects, it's about maneuvering opponents. Enemy behind cover or a door or something? Give them a really good reason to get out from behind that where you and your companions can have more of an impact. Enemy lay down some kind of beneficial AoE around themselves and their allies? Make them pay for having to stay in there. Got a choke point? Make passing through that choke point hurt. It may be unfulfilling that sometimes your spells are really only being used maneuvering opponents rather than directly impact them, but it's a team effort.

Now, one problem you ARE going to have is occasional lack of synergy with your companions. My Elementalist gets a lot of sh*t from our Warrior whenever I lay down Icy Surface. "I can't run up and pound on them, q-q-q." Yeah, well guess what, that spell is keeping that wall of enemies from crashing over your squishy Elementalist and Scout companions, who can also lay down a lot of hurt from range while those bad guys flail about prone, so suck it up. Same thing is going to happen for you: sometimes, your close combatants are really only serving as distractions or anchors on enemies so that ranged/spell companions can lay down the hurt, and your close combatant companion should realize it's the best use of the group's time, even if in this situation THEY are the one just twiddling their thumbs. Fog of Jeer can be like that: let your damage sponge close combatant keep everybody in that circle while his/her range combatants reap the benefits of the lowered defense. Yeah, that close combatant may take a beating because of the lowered defense, but as long as you give better than you get, it's a win.

[True Neutral]

No, Yes, Yes.

Would you mind giving some detail on answer #2?

What advantage do you give to party members that know Fog of Jeer is an illusion or know that it is being cast (say a code phrase used by the caster like "Laugh it up")? Do they get an automatic Sensing test before it takes effect or do they have to go Aggressive and be hampered until their next action? +5 on it because the caster is telling them it is an illusion?
How does this compare to the advantage the caster has walking into their own spell effect?
How does this compare to any advantage another target may have if they have Sensed a previous Fog is an illusion (in the same combat, say)? Only a few talents and spells specifically state that they can't be used again on a target for a period of time so our GM's ruling is that each is all new, uniquely cast each time.

In that same vein, if a person with a very high Mystic Defense, one that would have prevented the Fog from being cast in the first place, walks into the area, are they affected? On one hand I can see the idea that you are casting an area spell in an area and the targets with Mystic Defense are part of that area at the time and once it is established it's effects have warped that area. On the other hand it seems a little hinky that you could cast the Fog next to someone that would normally be immune to it, then boot them into the Fog and they are vulnerable.

[True Neutral]

I get the, push them out of somewhere they want to be idea, that makes sense. How does casting a Fog of Jeer over a choke point make it 'hurt' though? You run through. And that's it. According to the spell description the Harried and Aggressive status only apply to actions taken inside the Fog. I suppose if you had someone holding their action that was able to attack at range they would be hitting someone with -2 for being Harried, but that's pretty chancy. In most scenarios someone runs though it, maybe says to themselves, "that was weird" and then does whatever they were going to do on the other side in the first place with no penalties to their action, right?

[The Undying]

What advantage do you give to party members that know Fog of Jeer is an illusion or know that it is being cast (say a code phrase used by the caster like "Laugh it up")? Do they get an automatic Sensing test before it takes effect or do they have to go Aggressive and be hampered until their next action? +5 on it because the caster is telling them it is an illusion?

Every new Illusion or Figment is a new instance, and each instance has to be Sensed or Disbelieved uniquely. Just because the last frothing-at-the-mouth hellhound was an illusion does not guarantee that the next one is. Remember that every single spell FEELS REAL until Sensed/Disbelieved; if one goes around assuming that every door could be fake because one was, then you're going to have a hard time.

Sensing is a reaction to the subtle imperfections in an Illusion, but it takes either examination or interaction. Sensing is always required, even if someone else has passed and is attempting to convince others (during which time they grant a +5 bonus to those listening). So, you can't tell your buddies a secret phrase and give them a pass - that Illusion is still very much real to them until THEY sense it. As for having a secret phrase, I'd put that squarely in the column of meta-gaming - the spell would have a extra thread option of "Remove targets (X / Rank)" if that were an intention, otherwise I'd say that idea is basically baked into the system (I find it hard to believe that eighty million Illusionists before now have not had this same idea).

In that same vein, if a person with a very high Mystic Defense, one that would have prevented the Fog from being cast in the first place, walks into the area, are they affected? On one hand I can see the idea that you are casting an area spell in an area and the targets with Mystic Defense are part of that area at the time and once it is established it's effects have warped that area. On the other hand it seems a little hinky that you could cast the Fog next to someone that would normally be immune to it, then boot them into the Fog and they are vulnerable.

In this case, the Spellcasting test is a test to manifest the ability. Once it's manifest, anyone entering is affected. Seems reasonable to me - someone that was outside the original area has to knowingly walk into this creepy fog thing before it can take affect. If that doesn't scream "something is up," that person has other problems.

I get the, push them out of somewhere they want to be idea, that makes sense. How does casting a Fog of Jeer over a choke point make it 'hurt' though? You run through. And that's it. According to the spell description the Harried and Aggressive status only apply to actions taken inside the Fog. I suppose if you had someone holding their action that was able to attack at range they would be hitting someone with -2 for being Harried, but that's pretty chancy. In most scenarios someone runs though it, maybe says to themselves, "that was weird" and then does whatever they were going to do on the other side in the first place with no penalties to their action, right?

Fog of Jeer isn't a great example of barrier-type spells. Other spells, especially Elementalist spells, are better examples. However, it doesn't invalidate the point: given a choke point, like a corridor, you can have your close combat specialist stand outside the fog on your end, forcing enemies to enter the fog and stay within the area while confronting your companion, who is outside of it. That may SEEM a bit wonky, but it's fairly reasonable - the spell has a completely obvious area of effect given the fog, so it's easy for your companion to stand outside of it, but it's ALSO completely obvious to your enemy that it's likely in their best entrance to take a swing or two from your companion while they attempt to move beside or past them to get out of the obvious fog area.

[Lys]

Sensing is a reaction to the subtle imperfections in an Illusion, but it takes either examination or interaction. Sensing is always required, even if someone else has passed and is attempting to convince others (during which time they grant a +5 bonus to those listening). So, you can't tell your buddies a secret phrase and give them a pass - that Illusion is still very much real to them until THEY sense it. As for having a secret phrase, I'd put that squarely in the column of meta-gaming - the spell would have a extra thread option of "Remove targets (X / Rank)" if that were an intention, otherwise I'd say that idea is basically baked into the system (I find it hard to believe that eighty million Illusionists before now have not had this same idea).

According to the rules on Pg. 267, "A character who has detected an illusion can help others overcome its effects. He can use his understanding to convince others of the nature of the illusion, granting them a +5 bonus to their Sensing tests when actively working with them to demonstrate its nature." It's up to the GM as to whether the Illusionist who cast the spell telling you it's an illusion counts as actively demonstrating its nature. Personally i would rule that yes it does, but you can feel free to rule otherwise, as the book doesn't clearly specify one way or the other. In the even that it does count, then the use of a code phrase is simply to make sure that the group's enemies are not also alerted to the fact that it's an illusion.

[The Undying]

To each there own. Again, my opinion, this is not some "oh man, I am surely the first person to have this unique thought" situation. I'm sure that every Illusionist that has every traveled with others since the dawn of the Discipline has had this idea, so the idea that this wouldn't be taken into account is just bizarre to me. Rules exist to build a narrative and fun, constantly trying to squeeze out every little bonus is kind of counter to the reason rules exist for me - if your table wants your friends to not be effected by companions illusions, I say just make it so instead of trying to twist things around to reach that point.

[Lys]

And yet it's not taken into account, because the rules don't say anything of it. The rules don't even explicitly say whether or not Illusionists are affected by their own illusions. Sure i assume that they're not, as does nearly everyone else, but that is an assumption made because the alternative seems ridiculous. Yet it's not really all that ridiculous, you could easily construct a sound argument that they're just as affected as anyone else, because the entire point of illusions is that they warp people's minds. It even fits really well into the Disciplines core beliefs that truth and lies are not as easily distinguishable as most people believe.

Also there is a middle ground between a table wanting the Illusionist's friends being equally affected by her illusions, and their being completely immune to them. Said middle ground could be expressed by, for example, the Illusionist warning her friends that something is illusory resulting in a +5 bonus to sensing tests, as the rules suggest. Or it could be expressed by some other means. This isn't twisting things around to reach total immunity via some back road, it's attempting to reach a middle ground.

[The Undying]

And yet, somehow, we get by without rules for putting on our pants, chewing, and breathing.

The rules should not be considered all-encompassing. At the end of the day, there will ALWAYS be questions that have to be determined with a "does this make sense?" So, does it make sense to you that what is likely an incredibly common idea for pretty much any Illusionist ever to have existed isn't just kind of taken account in the system? Does it make sense that your Illusionist would be affected by his own illusions?