Illusionist Fog of Jeer spell - some questions

[Tattered Rags]

You can easily argue that the very act of casting the illusion, of creating it, is an interaction, one in which you definitively know it's an illusion because you are creating it. You fabricate the lie; you know the truth.

[RazanMG]

No you do not. If your own illusion tells you otherwhise :p Except aoe, illusionist is almost never target of his own illusions. Cant see problems here. Any other examples except aoe?

[Tattered Rags]

How can you be deceived by something you already know is a lie?

The question is, and each table decides on an answer best for them, is casting the spell enough for the Illusionist to know the truth?

I would say in most cases that one must know the truth to create a convincing lie. Fun with Doors, Monstrous Mantle, if I cast these things I know they are fake, because I crafted them, I wrote the story, created the fiction. I am intimately involved with the twists and contortions that are bending the fabric of truth into this lie for others to believe. My own illusions cannot tell me they are true because I wrote their secrets.

Now, your illusions are clearly true. I have no doubt about that.

[RazanMG]

Illusions plays with mind, it overwrites information in your consciousnesses. You as a player know its an illusion, for your character its reality unless that illusion is not targeting you.

If you cast on someone spell giving bonus to attack, and suddenly target changes mind and starts attacking you, your own illusion will still affect you (the one with att bonus), but at least you know its an illusion (+5 sensing bonus).

Sometimes you/your character will know its an illusion because you're not the target of illusion, sometimes will not, and sometimes you will know its an illusion but your mind wont listen to reason.

Many times someones mind wont listen to reason.

[Tattered Rags]

I don't know of you mistyped, but you don't get a +5 sensing bonus for knowing it's an illusion. You get the bonus for thinking it might be an illusion, and the sensing test reveals it to you.

Once you know it's an illusion, it no longer has power over you.

And I still can't think of a better way to know it's an illusion than to have been the one who cast the spell.

[The Undying]

The +5 bonus to Sensing test is not for thinking its an illusion - which is why I'm not fond of the whole code word thing. The +5 bonus to Sensing is when someone else has positively identified it as an illusion and is trying to help you realize it's an illusion. You can't say "I believe this is an illusion" and get +5. Similarly, in my opinion, you can't hear the code word "carrot" and get a +5 bonus to Sensing. You CAN get a +5 to Sensing when your ally is helping you to overcome the illusion, like when he says "really, I'm telling you, when you punch a wall, it feels different! This feels wrong! Pay attention on your next strike - you'll see, it gives just a little, walls don't do that." Saying "surf's up" when casting an illusion is not explaining to some why they should think THIS SPECIFIC THING which they have never before interacted with isn't an illusion. If it is, I'd argue a converse: anyone that senses through an illusion should get a +5 Sensing against spells they see that magician cast - its as good a justification: "that guy cast an illusion before so this one could be one to" is pretty much the same as "he told me that 'strawberry crape' means his spell is an illusion, and since he just said it, I guess this one is too."

Bonus thought: if magicians start screaming "itch biscuit" when casting spells, I'd give enemies a bonus to Sensing, too - OBVIOUSLY something is weird

[Telarus]

There is a category of "illusions that can simply be dismissed as such" - the rules refer to these as Figments. Spells that do not mention this are NOT figments. In fact, the sensing rules state that once an illusion is sensed, it becomes a figment for that person. At this point, I'm of the opinion that the +5 bonus does require another character that has detected an illusion "as-an-illusion" to help you some-how to push past the mind-clouding magic. "...when actively working with them to demonstrate it's nature" seems the key phrase to me. Its not "explain" it's nature, it's "demonstrate" (resisting a knockdown after damage is taken, walking through it, etc). IMO, of course.

[The Undying]

"...when actively working with them to demonstrate it's nature" seems the key phrase to me. Its not "explain" it's nature, it's "demonstrate" (resisting a knockdown after damage is taken, walking through it, etc). IMO, of course.

I'm totally down with this. I couldn't remember the actually wording from the book but knew it was more than "have a suspicion that it is an illusion" (which is the category I'd place code words in). I'm personally of the opinion that "demonstration" is something that would generally fall into Standard Action level of involvement: passing your sword through something, stepping through a wall in a deliberate manner, etc.

[True Neutral]

Agreed that a phrase might not be good enough, because all illusions (except a few like Displace Image) automatically compensate for user actions and transmit information directly to the brain.

I haven't seen any information about what a character who has identified an illusion has to do in order to convince others.
Is it that they see a specific flaw that they can point out, or because they see through the illusion can they see how it and other characters are compensating for it?
Is this a free action? If someone succeeds in a Sensing test in Initiative 12, do they have time to convince their friend who is acting next in 11?
Do they need to be in a certain proximity?
How much does the other Namegiver need to trust them?
How much do illusions rely not on just short-circuited sensory information but also altered mental states? Fog of Jeer seems like it has to because the voices taunting the target are described specificaly as figments, something the target knows isn't real, but they are affected by them nonetheless. Seems like it would make much more sense if it was just an area effect where the caster can use their Taunt talent as a simple action, similar to the Nethermancer's Death's Head.

[True Neutral]

As a side note, the way I've been thinking about Illusions and Sensing tests is that an Illusion creates false input to the target that is generally accepted, but when the target performs an action more perfectly, more 'realistically' than the illusion can duplicate, they realize what is happening. Like when a video card tries to draw something too complex or move it too quickly and you see the jaggeds and stutters. When that occurs the target reconnects with the sensory input that now feels more valid and they see the illusion for what it is.

Along those lines, what about Illusionist spells that work in the opposite way, instead of convincing others something false is true, what about convincing targets that something true is false?

Liar, Liar - Convinces target that a second target is untrustworthy.
False Sensing - Convinces target that some normal object is illusionary.