Binding spirit

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Kosmit
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Binding spirit

Post by Kosmit » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:12 am

I have bound a Spirit with Find, Confussion, Fireblood, Wood Skin and Search.

I am allowed to use bound spirit powers, but which attribute I should use? Mine or spirit's? Who controls if spirit spends Karma on test?

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The Undying
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Re: Binding spirit

Post by The Undying » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:37 am

Kosmit wrote:
Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:12 am
I am allowed to use bound spirit powers, but which attribute I should use? Mine or spirit's? Who controls if spirit spends Karma on test?
There might an interpretation problem here. You can USE the abilities, you don't gain them. The ED3 Players Companion says pretty directly that you use the spirits' Step number for any tests.

I think the bigger problem here is that your question implies that you want to use Fireblood and Wood Skin on yourself. I haven't seen anything that talks about this case, but I personally wouldn't allow it. These aren't targeted abilities. They're self only (barring potential knacks). So you could direct the SPIRIT to use them ON ITSELF but you can't use it on yourself. That's be like saying you want to use a Manifest power in yourself.

Now you obviously don't need my permission, but here are the meta-physics of a binding:
- a bound spirit is still a separate entity; you do not subsume it into your pattern, you've just trapped it in an object
- a bound spirit can be forced to use its ability; the ENCHANTER is not using it, s/he is forcing the spirit to use it, which is why it uses the spirit Step. The only real flaw in this logic is that the magician pays any Strain, but I see this as more of fact that spirits can't perform life magic (which is what Strain powers), that needs to come from somewhere, so the magician has to provide it.
- various Talent/abilities are self-only. Some of these are native to Elemental spirits, some to Ally Spirits
- much like Adepts, spirits can have abilities that are really only for their use, to make them stronger in some way
- a bound spirit essentially acts like a summoned spirit, accept you have permanent access to them and don't have to negotiate to determine what abilities you can get them to use
- put these things together, and I'm not sure how one can make the logic leap that a spirit with a self-only Talent (like Fireblood and Wood Skin) could use them on someone else, even if bound. The real litmus tells would be "if this were just a summoned spirit, not a bound spirit, would it be allowed to use this Talent/ability on the summoner?" If the answer is "no, these are only useful if this spirit were to Manifest, at which point it could use them on itself (Wood Skin to make itself more hearty, Fireblood to prevent loss of Manifest)" then why would that change due to being bound?

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The Undying
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Re: Binding spirit

Post by The Undying » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:42 pm

The more I think on this, the more I'm confident that my perspective is fundamentally correct. If an Adept GAINED all the spirit's talents, then you'd eventually have Adepts with every Talent in the game. Just keep summoning and binding until you've got them all. That is just broken level bad.

By the by, it's worthwhile to note that there IS a downside to binding. You've just pissed off one of the passions (can't remember name spelling, something like Locus). At a minimum, that's put you on the outs with any of their Questors. You've also just made your job dealing with spirits that much harder (book is pretty clear that spirit avoid enchanters that perform bindings). Spirits are likely to be a bit more hostile from here on out, meaning your summonings are likely to be a bit messier.

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Re: Binding spirit

Post by Kosmit » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:02 pm

Except I've rolled like 50+ on charisma test to persuade spirit that he will help me fight horrors xD

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The Undying
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Re: Binding spirit

Post by The Undying » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:46 pm

Doesn't matter. You've trapped a spirit. The spirit can't say "I've changed my mind, time to go" - it is in a prison, even if you sweet talked it into there. Other spirits are going to see a trapped spirit - whether it's smiling is irrelevant, you've likely brainwashed it as far as they're concerned. Questers are only going to see the bars.

The use case you're talking about exists as a separate mechanism. Familiars. As soon as you bound that spirit, you enslaved it. It can't tell you no anymore, it has to do what you tell it to do. You may have told it you were going to fight Horrors, and maybe you will eventually, but you're also going to do a lot of stuff around that, some of which the spirit may not be on board with.

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Re: Binding spirit

Post by Kosmit » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:29 am

In the group I am playing with, binding spirit is not that big offense. At least according to my GM.

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The Undying
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Re: Binding spirit

Post by The Undying » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:50 am

Table rules always trump!

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Kosmit
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Re: Binding spirit

Post by Kosmit » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:43 am

But you made me wondering that summoning (apart from Aid Summoner) would be rather weak. There are little powers with target other than self so using spirits is the only option. Or we can think about some crazy possession stuff going on and then using Fireblood or something.

Summoning is hard and costs money. Consequences are harsh, so the reward should be good enough.

Curently I have a spirit bound to perfectly crafted ring and it is not to use spirit but to protect him from Vistrosh (Bound spirits are harder to detect by Nethermancers) and I treat him well. It's funny how waving hand creates astral portals like Dr Strange :D

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Re: Binding spirit

Post by Slimcreeper » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:27 pm

I'm not looking at the book, nor am I really familiar with these rules, but Undying, you're saying that a spirit can't use some of it's powers without a living being to pay the strain cost? That ... could be really cool. The spirit becomes more powerful but less free when summoned and bound?

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The Undying
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Re: Binding spirit

Post by The Undying » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:15 pm

I think it's take a critical review of the abilities. Which ones use Strain and which ones don't. More than anything, I was just looking for a way to explain why the magician pays Strain instead of the spirit when the spirit is bound. Realistically, it's a mechanical thing - there needs to be drawbacks to the system. However, no reason that something made purely go mechanical reasons can't be developed into a flavor reason to make it more meaningful.

Trying to examine the meta-physics again, spirits probably don't really "exist" so much when they're bound. They just a source of effects at that point, another way of enchanting. I'm not aware of abilities that can target bound spirits to harm them, meaning that they basically exist in this half-world where they are no longer a fully independent thing with health and recovery points. Honestly, the picture of a bound spirit is pretty bleak - they're basically folded in upon themselves to be forced into the item, as if you (the actual person reading this) were folded over yourself and placed into a coffee cup. Unable to move, constant discomfort, on top of which your only form of stimulus other than the crushing pressure of your vessel is when the magician forces you to use your powers.

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