High Circle Preview: Elementalist
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There is a preview of the Elementalist up today.
Here.
I'll note that there is an error in the Earth and Wind ability. Panda notes that it works only on allies, while the blog post only says "characters" get the +3 MD bonus with no limiting restriction mentioned. Panda's comment agrees with the kickstarter early copy, so I'm inclined to say it was an oversight on Josh's part.
Here.
I'll note that there is an error in the Earth and Wind ability. Panda notes that it works only on allies, while the blog post only says "characters" get the +3 MD bonus with no limiting restriction mentioned. Panda's comment agrees with the kickstarter early copy, so I'm inclined to say it was an oversight on Josh's part.
Re: High Circle Preview: Elementalist
Yeah. Typo on my part, flipping between an even older draft and the current version stored on Google Docs.
(This is what development does to you!)
(This is what development does to you!)
Josh Harrison - josh@fasagames.com
Earthdawn Developer, Forum Admin
Personal Website: www.loremerchant.com
Earthdawn Developer, Forum Admin
Personal Website: www.loremerchant.com
- The Undying
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Re: High Circle Preview: Elementalist
Plant Talk
I really need this explained. Not only are we saying that this ability is so good that it deserves to be moved from the 1st Circle spell it was in ED3 to a Talent in ED4 (and a Warden Talent no less), we are also saying we need to saddle Elementalists with this as a Discipline Talent although they can basically do the same thing with a 30 minute summoning ritual? I do not understand this in the slightest. It would make good sense for this as Discipline Talent as a Scout (focus is on information gathering, they don't have access to similar ability through Summoning), but as an Elementalist, this seems at best an Option Talent for those that really want the information a Standard Action away rather than a 30 minute Summons away.
Perfect Focus makes FAR more sense as the Discipline Talent at this Circle. It improves Summoning, which is a central element of Elementalists (you have three Discipline Talents pretty much devoted to this ability), and it reinforces the message I'm getting that "Elementalists players should look at crafting/enchanting" with that Circle 9 Karma ability.
Please ... please ... please ... let's just swap these things in the published material ...
I really need this explained. Not only are we saying that this ability is so good that it deserves to be moved from the 1st Circle spell it was in ED3 to a Talent in ED4 (and a Warden Talent no less), we are also saying we need to saddle Elementalists with this as a Discipline Talent although they can basically do the same thing with a 30 minute summoning ritual? I do not understand this in the slightest. It would make good sense for this as Discipline Talent as a Scout (focus is on information gathering, they don't have access to similar ability through Summoning), but as an Elementalist, this seems at best an Option Talent for those that really want the information a Standard Action away rather than a 30 minute Summons away.
Perfect Focus makes FAR more sense as the Discipline Talent at this Circle. It improves Summoning, which is a central element of Elementalists (you have three Discipline Talents pretty much devoted to this ability), and it reinforces the message I'm getting that "Elementalists players should look at crafting/enchanting" with that Circle 9 Karma ability.
Please ... please ... please ... let's just swap these things in the published material ...
Last edited by The Undying on Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
- The Undying
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Re: High Circle Preview: Elementalist
For the positives:
Elemental Mastery & Elemental Form: I love both of these. I felt it was very, very weird that Elemental spirits don't have some Adept-buffing ability like these out of the box, it just makes sense. I'm glad they came in somewhere.
Vine Armor & Stone Skin with Burning Vigor: SUPER glad that Elementalists get access to the latter Talent Option, I could easily see this as an ALMOST must have, especially for Elementalists playing a Recovery Test support role (save their real RT for healing others rather than on RT-consuming Talents).
Perfect Focus & 9th Circle Karma ability: This, honestly, has got me SUPER stoked. I love the idea of player Enchanting, and if they're giving Elementalists a specific Karma ability that is ONLY going to be useful once in a blue moon, I'm expecting GREAT THINGS from an overhauled Enchanting system ED4. If Enchanting is still kind of an afterthought pinned on system aimed more at explaining how Enchanting works in the setting rather than really encouraging player use (which is how I feel the older systems are), than this ability should really get ditched for the far more use ED3 10th Circle ability "The adept may spend 1 Karma Point on Action Tests made by a spirit or creature under his control."
Elemental Mastery & Elemental Form: I love both of these. I felt it was very, very weird that Elemental spirits don't have some Adept-buffing ability like these out of the box, it just makes sense. I'm glad they came in somewhere.
Vine Armor & Stone Skin with Burning Vigor: SUPER glad that Elementalists get access to the latter Talent Option, I could easily see this as an ALMOST must have, especially for Elementalists playing a Recovery Test support role (save their real RT for healing others rather than on RT-consuming Talents).
Perfect Focus & 9th Circle Karma ability: This, honestly, has got me SUPER stoked. I love the idea of player Enchanting, and if they're giving Elementalists a specific Karma ability that is ONLY going to be useful once in a blue moon, I'm expecting GREAT THINGS from an overhauled Enchanting system ED4. If Enchanting is still kind of an afterthought pinned on system aimed more at explaining how Enchanting works in the setting rather than really encouraging player use (which is how I feel the older systems are), than this ability should really get ditched for the far more use ED3 10th Circle ability "The adept may spend 1 Karma Point on Action Tests made by a spirit or creature under his control."
- The Undying
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Re: High Circle Preview: Elementalist
---------- Updated: FEB 15 ----------
The rest of this post is still useful, as it shows some math that may be of interest to people, but the "problem" it describes no longer exists.
---------- -------------------- ----------
Given the presence of Elemental Mastery (EM), Spliced Weave (SW) is just shy of mathematically useless. For Novice/Journeyman spells, all can be fully cast with four extra threads in a single turn using only EM at Circle 15; the only value for SW is a single Rank to accommodate dice randomness. For the few time-sensitive Warden spells that may exist, all could be cast in in a single turn using only EM at Circle 15, likely with multiple or all extra threads; the only value for SW is a single Rank to add the to accommodate dice randomness and potentially to add remaining extra threads. When a Talent exists solely for a single Rank, and only to accommodate dice randomness in most uses, it's difficult to consider this anything other than bad design. Justifying presence of SW as support for Multi-Discipline is likewise bad design - it is an optional mechanic for players, one that some/many GMs disagree with, so Talents that target support for Multi-Discipline should be Option Talents.
The remainder of this post provides justification for this conclusion.
Circle 15 Elementalists using Elemental Mastery have a minimum of Step 37 for Threadweaving tests (42 with Karma). Very likely, they have Step 42 with Thread Items / Group Thread (47 with Karma). Itemization is in spoiler below to decrease clutter.
On a purely Step vs Weaving Difficulty basis, Circle 15 Elementalist can weave all base threads and all four extra threads for any Novice/Journeyman spell in a single test using Elemental Mastery. For the few time-sensitive Warden spells that may exist, they likely can weave all base threads plus 1+ extra threads in a single test using Elemental Mastery. Adding the occasional use Elemental Form, these Warden spells can likely be woven with all base threads and all extra threads in a single turn. Itemization is in spoiler below to decrease clutter.
Elemental Mastery isn't necessarily overpowered in comparison to the Circle 10 Talents available to other magicians. Furthermore, of all the magician Disciplines to get high single-turn weaving potential early, Elementalist is likely least game-warping (lower damage, resisted by Physical Defense, primarily buff/debuf or AoE).
As a result, as a Discipline Talent, the only value of Spliced Weave for an Elementalist is either:
The result is that this Talent does, indeed, have some use for Elementalists. Specifically, the benefit is the LONG march up to being able to use all your successes in a Simple Action Spliced Weave test, thereby avoiding the lost turn with a Standard Action Threadweaving. But, once you get there, it's pretty sweet.The Undying wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:22 amLooks like this was just an interpretation problem from the preview material.Given the latter element, I don't think there is any problem with Spliced Weave as a Talent (and, honestly, I'm happy with it as an ability). The thread limitation mechanic is very similar to the Item History mechanic, so it isn't that wonky, just a niche situation. Regardless, there is DEFINITELY a reason to improve Spliced Weave, which differentiates it as a Talent over a Knack.
- Spliced Weave has an inherent benefit over Threadweaving: Spliced Weave is, in itself, a Simple Action. That means you can Threadweave via Spliced Weave on the same turn as spellcasting (via Spellcasting or Concise Casting).
- Additional Ranks in Spliced Weave do have value: Rank is the maximum number of threads that can be woven. Therefore, if you want to weave 8 threads, you need at least Spliced Weave 8. Doesn't matter if you can achieve all eight successes on a single Threadweaving test, you still can only use as many (cumulative) successes as you have Ranks in Spliced Weave.
The rest of this post is still useful, as it shows some math that may be of interest to people, but the "problem" it describes no longer exists.
---------- -------------------- ----------
Given the presence of Elemental Mastery (EM), Spliced Weave (SW) is just shy of mathematically useless. For Novice/Journeyman spells, all can be fully cast with four extra threads in a single turn using only EM at Circle 15; the only value for SW is a single Rank to accommodate dice randomness. For the few time-sensitive Warden spells that may exist, all could be cast in in a single turn using only EM at Circle 15, likely with multiple or all extra threads; the only value for SW is a single Rank to add the to accommodate dice randomness and potentially to add remaining extra threads. When a Talent exists solely for a single Rank, and only to accommodate dice randomness in most uses, it's difficult to consider this anything other than bad design. Justifying presence of SW as support for Multi-Discipline is likewise bad design - it is an optional mechanic for players, one that some/many GMs disagree with, so Talents that target support for Multi-Discipline should be Option Talents.
The remainder of this post provides justification for this conclusion.
Circle 15 Elementalists using Elemental Mastery have a minimum of Step 37 for Threadweaving tests (42 with Karma). Very likely, they have Step 42 with Thread Items / Group Thread (47 with Karma). Itemization is in spoiler below to decrease clutter.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
As a result, as a Discipline Talent, the only value of Spliced Weave for an Elementalist is either:
- A single Rank to accommodate dice randomness for Novice/Journeyman spells. As demonstrated above, this isn't actually necessary as the Elementalist Threadweaving Step likely already exceeds the objective result by 5/10 as the norm or by as much as 18 with Elemental Form
- A single Rank to add the couple remaining extra threads and to accommodate dice randomness for Warden spells. As demonstrated above, it's actually likely this Rank is only needed to accommodate dice randomness, not extra threads, given common extra Rank/bonuses and use of Elemental Form
Last edited by The Undying on Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: High Circle Preview: Elementalist
Plant Talk strikes me like it would be much better as an Elemental Tongues Knack instead of a Warden Discipline Talent.
The combo of Elemental Mastery and Spliced Weave seems a little gratuitous. 2 Strain to practically double your Threadweaving (and allow 2 Karma on the roll), or 1 Strain to roll Threadweaving again (and spend 1 Karma on each roll).
11th Circle Karma ability: Is it 1 Karma per target in a multi-target spell?
The combo of Elemental Mastery and Spliced Weave seems a little gratuitous. 2 Strain to practically double your Threadweaving (and allow 2 Karma on the roll), or 1 Strain to roll Threadweaving again (and spend 1 Karma on each roll).
11th Circle Karma ability: Is it 1 Karma per target in a multi-target spell?
Re: High Circle Preview: Elementalist
Plant Talk was originally a First Circle Spell and it was underpowered there. I had assumed they had simply moved it to being a Companion Spell when ED4 came out without it. I think you're right that it should just be an Elemental Tongues Knack. Then we give Scouts Elemental Tongues instead as a Warden Talent Option (which makes a heck of a lot of sense to me ITFP) and then we just need a new Elementalist Talent.
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Re: High Circle Preview: Elementalist
With Elemental Mastery, Spliced Weave is just shy of mathematically useless. For Journeyman & Novice spells, it exists to provide a single Rank for no purpose other than to accommodate dice randomness. Independently, both are bad reasons for a Talent to exist. Together, it is straight broken level bad where Circle 15 exists as a dead Discipline Talent space for Elementalists.
- The Undying
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Re: High Circle Preview: Elementalist
Granting Scouts access to Elemental Tongues is a bit too much, I think. Summoning is two parts: the Summon, and then the Negotiation. The Summon in ED4 guarantees one service, but the summoner can negotiate more for a price during negotiations. If you give Scouts Elemental Tongues, you open an unintended capability: they can negotiate with local Elemental spirits at a cost to theoretically receive the benefits of summoning. They're far more limited because they cannot target spirit strengths and most local spirits would be very weak (most spirits for Plant Talk likely aren't even strength rating 1), but I'd interpret it to be there.
Otherwise, I'd be okay with this change. Scouts get lots of outdoor-y stuff, and the ability to speak with local Element spirits is a good fit. Plant Talk as a Knack can serve as a special-purpose Summon, allowing the Adept the very limited function of asking about surrounding happenings but much faster than a summoning due to the limited nature of the Knack. It's also an Option Talent, so urban-focused Scouts aren't required to take it (much like info gathering for Elementalists has strictly been an Option space up to this point and there's no reason for them to get forced a single Discipline Talent in what is otherwise an Option space).
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Re: High Circle Preview: Elementalist
[Editing this post rather than creating a new one]
Thanks to some clarification by Mataxes in a separate thread, there's definitely good value to Splice Weave, both as a Talent and as a Talent available to Elementalists. Once again, I back-edited the post herein to include that conclusion: http://www.fasagames.com/forum/viewtopi ... =148#p1465
Thanks to some clarification by Mataxes in a separate thread, there's definitely good value to Splice Weave, both as a Talent and as a Talent available to Elementalists. Once again, I back-edited the post herein to include that conclusion: http://www.fasagames.com/forum/viewtopi ... =148#p1465