Swift Kick

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RazanMG
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Swift Kick

Post by RazanMG » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:39 pm

Can Swift Kick be used if you don't use Standard Action for attack?
You cannot use Second Attack/Weapon if you don't use Standard Action for attack.

Fireblood+Swift Kick
Spellcasting+Swift Kick
Getting up (from Knocked Down)+Swift Kick
and so on...

Dougansf
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Re: Swift Kick

Post by Dougansf » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:26 pm

ED4 PG page 172 wrote: Swift Kick
If the adept has free use of a leg he may kick an opponent as an additional attack in close combat.
Good question.

I think the bold text implies that a primary attack has to be made, but it's not as clear as the description for Second Attack or Second Weapon.

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The Undying
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Re: Swift Kick

Post by The Undying » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:33 pm

I'd say that the text intends for it to be an additional attack, meaning an initial attack has to be made, which requires a Standard Action given what we know now.

I'll point out that one very interest plus to Swift Kick is that it doesn't require the first attack to be SUCCESSFUL. The other two - Second Attack, Momentum Attack - require use after a successful attack. Strictly reading, that's a chain: if one attack fails, you can't continue (example: hit on melee attack, miss on second attack, can't momentum attack because it is not after a successful attack). Less strict reading, you still need to land the hit on the first melee/unarmed attack, so avoiding that first hit becomes VERY important and useful. Swift Kick doesn't require success on that first attack, it's just a bonus attack. I'd have to reread the Second/Momentum Attack text to see if that recoils RAW restart them (but I wouldn't allow that at my table, not in flavor even if it is in text).

Lys
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Re: Swift Kick

Post by Lys » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:47 pm

While i would not allow you to use Swift Kick on any turn where you're not attacking, i would absolutely not require that it be the first attack of the round. The writing does not specifically require that it go after the first attack, since i take "additional attack" as meaning "in addition to the other attacks you're going to do" not "additional after the first". Moreover there is no good balance reason why Swift Kick shouldn't go first. It does very low damage, and as such is pretty useless except as an attack to knockdown, and the best time to attack to knockdown is your first attack in the round. Therefore, Swift Kick can go first.

Also, neither Second Weapon nor Second Attack require the first attack to be successful. In fact Second Weapon doesn't even require that it happen after the primary attack, only that the two happen in the same round. The specific text is, "The adept wields a one-handed melee weapon in his off-hand to attack an opponent in the same round as his primary melee weapon." For Second Attack it's, "The adept makes an additional close combat attack, using the same weapon he used for his first Attack test that round." Momentum Attack does require a successful attack, but it doesn't have to be your initial attack since it says, "If the adept achieves an extra success on a close combat Attack test against an opponent, he may make another attack against that opponent." So if you have all of them (8th Circle Warriors, 11th Circle Swordmasters) you can do Swift Kick, Melee Weapons, Second Weapon, Second Attack, then if any of those four hit with an extra success, Momentum Attack.

Another fun fact is that neither Second Weapon nor Second Attack require you to attack the same opponent as you are engaging with Melee Weapons, nor for that matter does Swift Kick. So you could conceivably engage four different opponents. It's usually not as efficient as focusing on one opponent until he is disabled, but in the event you manage to take down an opponent with your first blow, you can use your extra attacks against any adjacent opponents. Momentum Attack, on the other hand, must be against the same opponent against whom the extra success was scored.

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The Undying
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Re: Swift Kick

Post by The Undying » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:21 am

Yep, my bad on the Second Attack, just bad recollection (maybe that's what I get for posting while standing on a train).

I'd disagree with any use of these Talents as primary attacks. They all clearly say "additional" - they can't be additional if a first one is not made.

Also, arguably, I'd say it makes much more sense to start with your main attack rather than any of these. Likely (but not required), an Adept's main attack (Melee/Unarmed) has a higher rank than the others. This means it is more likely to hit, and more likely to hit with extra successes to inflict extra damage, both of which add to the chance that the opponent is knocked down. A prone opponent has a lowered Defense (again, really hope I'm not mis-remembering things), so the lower Rank additional attack Talents have a better chance of hitting. Starting with the additional attacks just increases risk of failure in hopes that they become knocked down so that your stronger primary attack does a bit more damage.

Lys
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Re: Swift Kick

Post by Lys » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:07 am

You have to declare your actions before you do them. If you have already declared that you're going to use your Standard Action to attack, then by definition any other attacks done as Simple Actions are in addition to that, regardless of whether they happen before or after. That said you're right, in most circumstances you want to use your primary weapon skill first, and all the other extra attack ones second. However, in the specific case of Swift Kick i think it's more advantageous to use it first with the attack to knockdown option. At least against lightly armoured opponents. Against heavily armoured opponents, or those likely to have Wound Balance, Swift Kick is pretty much only good for kicking people when they're down.

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Kosmit
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Re: Swift Kick

Post by Kosmit » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:55 am

Lys wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:07 am
You have to declare your actions before you do them.
Wasn't that changed to include only combat options?

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The Undying
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Re: Swift Kick

Post by The Undying » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:19 am

Was definitely changed to SOMETHING. Just couldn't remember what and no rule book ... and my brain seems to be failing me on text recollection

Lys
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Re: Swift Kick

Post by Lys » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:14 am

Kosmit wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:55 am
Wasn't that changed to include only combat options?
Not quite, the action order is: 1) Declare Intentions, 2) Determine Initiative, 3) Declare and Resolve Actions, 4) Begin a New Round. The Declare Intentions part it says: "All characters declare the general type of action intend to perform during the round, along with any combat options (see p. 382) they intend to use. This doesn’t need to be overly formal."

So you don't have to specify all the Talents that you're going to use, but you do have to establish that you're going to attack your opponent. Having established that, it's a given that you will use your Standard Action to do it, and you can structure the rest of the action around that. Frankly even if you changed Declare Intentions to Declare Combat Options, when you get to your turn nothing stops you from just saying, "I'm going to Swift Kick and then Melee Weapons", thereby establishing that your Swift Kick will be in addition to your normal attack as per the rules.

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The Undying
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Re: Swift Kick

Post by The Undying » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:19 pm

barring Mataxes/Panda weighing in, I think we've fallen squarely into a land of interpretation here that we just really aren't going to come to agreement on. :) As to the original question, tho, I think we all agree: Swift Kick requires another attack to at least be done in that round, which basically means a Standard Action.

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