Nethermancer at Circle 3?

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Sharkforce
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Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:39 am

Re: Nethermancer at Circle 3?

Post by Sharkforce » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:54 am

regarding soul armour, you may wish to discuss the rules for chain casting on page 433 of the companion.

the argument for bone spirits having knowledge of nethermancy is that they are ally spirits, which dwell in the nether realms, can be summoned by nethermancers, controlled by nethermancers, and are otherwise in the domain of nethermancy.

i suppose arguably the most compelling argument is that they can gain a spirit power called evil eye... now, evil eye doesn't exist, or at least, not as such. but there is a spell by that name, from the nethermancy discipline. and spirits can have an ability to cast spells. as part of that ability, the spirit gains the ability to weave additional threads as if they were of the appropriate discipline with a circle equal to their strength rating.

...

of course, that particular ability may be a typo, because the spell evil eye does absolutely nothing for someone who doesn't have the frighten talent, as you have likely already noticed for yourself (at least, i'm presuming you're at least looking at 4th circle nethermancy spells for the future). and bone spirits don't have the frighten talent. so i'm kind of assuming that at some point, either bone spirits could take that power, or the spell did something different. it is also possible that there actually was supposed to be a spirit power called evil eye, which got removed and someone didn't notice it was referenced in the bone spirit's list of powers.

so, be cautious on that last point about evil eye.

anyways, i think there is a decently strong argument that bone spirits have some knowledge of nethermancy. to me, the biggest argument is that they are from the nether realms, and it seems like they would be equipped to handle darkness from those other dimensions. YMMV, of course.

Tattered Rags
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Re: Nethermancer at Circle 3?

Post by Tattered Rags » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:08 am

Lamoron wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:11 am
Tattered Rags wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:02 pm
Edit: Oh, Arrow of Night is good. Needed to reread that. It's equivalent to a plus 15 on a successful attack roll. Just need the archer to fire and hit the next round, but your spellcasting test is practically guaranteed, so it really still only comes down to 1 roll.
I see your point, even though positioning is an issue, the spell can be wasted if the archer cannot attack, and the spellcasting test is not really guaranteed (but that would be true of any spell, so that's a non-issue). We don't have an archer though, so it's still a no :D
:lol:

Well, that's a bummer. So party composition is an issue, too. But doesn't that make you the only ranged attacker?

If you have someone throwing things, you could work with your GM to reskin and rework Arrow of Night a little. Perhaps +3 or +4 and the weapon isn't destroyed. Or keep it at +6 or even increase it since it's not like throwing weapons are that great to begin with.
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Lamoron
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Re: Nethermancer at Circle 3?

Post by Lamoron » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:49 am

Tattered Rags wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:08 am
Well, that's a bummer. So party composition is an issue, too. But doesn't that make you the only ranged attacker?
We have a Troll Swordmaster, an Elf Beastmaster with a Wolf, a Human Wizard, and an Elf Nethermancer. We also have a Obsidiman Warrior that can only make about half our sessions. We had another ranged character but the player had to quit due to real life circumstances, and I used to be a Windling Archer, but... it was a great funeral... so I didn't much feel like doing another one.

I haven't really felt like the group is lacking ranged presence, but maybe that'll change with higher circle enemies?

Lamoron
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Re: Nethermancer at Circle 3?

Post by Lamoron » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:50 am

Sharkforce wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:54 am
(...) the biggest argument is that they are from the nether realms, and it seems like they would be equipped to handle darkness from those other dimensions. YMMV, of course.
That is a very good argument tbh :)

Tattered Rags
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Re: Nethermancer at Circle 3?

Post by Tattered Rags » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:05 pm

Lamoron wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:49 am
I haven't really felt like the group is lacking ranged presence, but maybe that'll change with higher circle enemies?
Nah, I don't think so. You've got two people able to attack at range out of four and a half. Might not pack a huge punch at range, but I think you've got it covered.

Does the wizard feel the same as you in combat, though?
Lamoron wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:49 am
...I used to be a Windling Archer, but... it was a great funeral... so I didn't much feel like doing another one.
May that flighty little needle-thrower rest in peace.
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Lamoron
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Re: Nethermancer at Circle 3?

Post by Lamoron » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:05 pm

Tattered Rags wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:05 pm
Does the wizard feel the same as you in combat, though?
I don't think so. He has built his character to be able to engage in melee, but most importantly a Mind Dagger has increased damage with success, and it debuffs Physical Defense on top of the better damage, so it allows the rest of the team to be very effective.

In our last fight I ended up taking out a Dagger and going aggressive, despite not having any melee skill, and then doing more damage in one hit than my Spirit Darts had done over five rounds, simply because there are two opportunities for exploding dice when the hits can add to damage as well, and I can simply chose to get +3 to hit and damage, since my entire defence is Avoid Blow and not my actual Physical Defence.

Dexterity step 7, +3 aggressive = Step 10 to hit, which is one lower than my Nethermancy.
Strength step 4, +3 aggressive, +2 Dagger = Step 9 to damage, which is the same as my Spirit Dart.

So with zero points invested of any kind, I'm better in melee than at magic, because the Wizard debuffs Physical Defense, and because I can get additional success to damage. That's a bit silly :)

Tattered Rags
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Re: Nethermancer at Circle 3?

Post by Tattered Rags » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:18 pm

Lamoron wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:05 pm
In our last fight I ended up taking out a Dagger and going offensive, despite not having any melee skill, and then doing more damage in one hit than my Spirit Darts had done over five rounds, simply because there's two opportunities for exploding dice when the hits can add to damage as well.
Well, if you end up melee anyway, may as well use Spirit Grip and outclass the Mind Dagger (or double up with it for a massive -4 to PD), though I think your intent I'd to stay at range.

At Circle 3/4, is your Nethermancy decently high? Think you could hit 2 threads in 1 round? With karma? May want to consider tossing Astral Spear at 2 targets every other round or every three rounds. Decent damage, extra successes increase it, and if you have to threadweave anyway, drop an extra thread for a DN of 10. Even if you don't hit it that first round, you're very likely to get it the next and cast every three rounds. Not ideal, but it's decent damage.

Throw your step numbers into Anydice and see how an extra-threaded Astral Spear stacks against just spamming Spirit Darts.
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Avanti
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Re: Nethermancer at Circle 3?

Post by Avanti » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:13 pm

you also have a good combo there - with Spirit Dart and Astral Spear (the first lower Mystic Armor, the latter doing more damage). You should be able to weave 2 threads each round by now and that gives the spear a lot of flexibility - do not underestimate the range it has - look for opportinuties to snipe at targets.

LCoO is a very useful in specific circumstances. If you are facing off with horror contructs all the better. Note that you can stand in place and cast the spell each round essentially creating an impenetrable "last stand" fortress, where your warriors can split movement to get into melee with monsters wise enough to stand on the ege of the circle, hit them hard and return to safety. This works even better in narrow corridors or doorways.

ender3rd
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Re: Nethermancer at Circle 3?

Post by ender3rd » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:07 pm

I tend to prefer astral spear to spirit dart on my nethermancer. I can pretty reliably tie 2 threads to it, giving me a second target plus the option to be close and use a knack or far and safe.

JetBlackJoe
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Re: Nethermancer at Circle 3?

Post by JetBlackJoe » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:13 pm

Tattered Rags wrote:Does the wizard feel the same as you in combat, though?
Lamoron wrote:I don't think so. He has built his character to be able to engage in melee, but most importantly a Mind Dagger has increased damage with success, and it debuffs Physical Defense on top of the better damage, so it allows the rest of the team to be very effective.
I am the Wizard in question. I don't feel overly useless in combat - my magic is good at hitting but low on damage, while my melee attacks are high on damage but have trouble landing. It certainly helps that Mind Dagger yields damage on successes while debuffing PD, allowing me to follow up in melee. Who said battlemages were'nt an Earthdawn thing?

That being said, I certainly agree that spellcasters in general excel at buffs and utility moreso than pure destruction.
Lamoron wrote:In our last fight I ended up taking out a Dagger and going aggressive, despite not having any melee skill, and then doing more damage in one hit than my Spirit Darts had done over five rounds [...]
It should be noted for reference that the reason why you (and I as well) ended up being more successful in melee was mostly determined by the fact that the enemy had twice as high a MD versus PD. In a reversed scenario, I doubt either of us would resort to Aggressive Attacks for damage ;)
Last edited by JetBlackJoe on Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Mind over Body. Body over Mind."
- Verron Vittraxi, Wizard Extraordinaire

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