Wheeling Attack and Wheeling Defense

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admiralnlson
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Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:08 pm

Wheeling Attack and Wheeling Defense

Post by admiralnlson » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:50 pm

I've been playing Earthdawn for a while with a group of friends (all French), but I'm new on these forums. Hi there!

Based on comments I found on the FASA blog, I understand the effect of Wheeling Defense already has or will change in a later edition.
But I am confused about the way Wheeling Attack and Wheeling Defense work in the 3rd Edition (which is the one our group is playing as there is no French version for the 4th edition), and would appreciate some help from the community.

Wheeling Attack = 1 charge every turn?
I understand that, assuming there is enough room to move around, Wheeling Attack basically grants a Cavalryman the ability to Charge every round, assuming nothing extraordinary happens (e.g. falls from their mount), as opposed to –at best– once every other round prior to unlocking this Talent.
1. Is my understanding correct?

What does "same round" mean?
The Player's Compendium says:
- Wheeling Attack cannot be used in the same round as Wheeling Defense [from the Wheeling Attack description]
- Wheeling Defense cannot be used in the same round as Wheeling Attack [from the Wheeling Defense description]

I'm not sure what this means.
I'm fairly sure this does not mean Wheeling Attack cancels Wheeling Defense for the remainder of its duration, and instead that the cancellation effect only last "one round". But then what does "same round" mean.

What if, as a Cavalryman,
- I activated Wheeling Defense in the last round and succeeded (it is meant to last 5 rounds).
- I roll a 1 on my Initiative test
- my character is targeted by an enemy archer (with a init. roll of 10)
- other characters make their actions
- it's finally my turn and I go for a Wheeling Attack
?

2.a Do I have to retroactively negate the Wheeling Defense bonus, which was active when the archer launched an arrow at my character?

2.b.What happens at the beginning of next round (assuming I make a terrible initiative roll again)? Does the Wheeling Defense apply again for the most part of the round, or do I have to "pay" for the use of Wheeling Attack in the last round, until it's my turn to play again?

I've actually had this same kind of question for every Talent which have negative effects "until end of round": if you do bad Init rolls, you're less penalized by those I'm thinking, unless it is implied that rounds are a subjective thing per character (= as in it is the elapsed time between 2 consecutive init rolls/actions).

Thanks in advance. Hope the above is intelligible.

Bonhumm
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Re: Wheeling Attack and Wheeling Defense

Post by Bonhumm » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:58 pm

admiralnlson wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:50 pm
I've been playing Earthdawn for a while with a group of friends (all French), but I'm new on these forums. Hi there!
Bienvenue dans les forums. Ils y a quelques franco ici aussi :-)

admiralnlson wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:50 pm
Wheeling Attack = 1 charge every turn?
I understand that, assuming there is enough room to move around, Wheeling Attack basically grants a Cavalryman the ability to Charge every round, assuming nothing extraordinary happens (e.g. falls from their mount), as opposed to –at best– once every other round prior to unlocking this Talent.
1. Is my understanding correct?
Going through the 3rd Edition rules; I don't see anything that would prevent someone from Charging every round, whether they use Wheeling Attack of not. Of course, getting into the minimum required distance to charge someone might 'waste' a round in some situation so I guess this is what you mean.

Wheeling Attack just remove the minimum distance requirement to charge a target. Therefore I'd say yes, it helps you make sure you can Charge every round since it remove the risk of having to waste a round to get into position.
admiralnlson wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:50 pm
What does "same round" mean?
The Player's Compendium says:
First, I'd like to point out that the Player's Compendium is NOT a Third Edition book but instead a Classic Edition book (i.e. 2.5 Edition). This is why the rule about this Talent is significantly different between the 2 books.

Wheeling Defense in Classic Edition:
  • Duration: number of round equal to result of Talent Test.
  • Strain: 0
  • Effect: +Rank to PHY DEF of mount and character
  • CAN be used in the same round as Wheeling Attack: No

Wheeling Defense in 3rd Edition:
  • Duration: 'Last until the end of the next round'.
  • Strain: 1
  • Effect: +Rank to PHY DEF of mount and character
  • CAN be used in the same round as Wheeling Attack: Yes

Wheeling Defense int 4th Edition:
  • Duration: 'Last until the end of the next round'.
  • Strain: 1
  • Effect: +2 to PHY DEF of mount and character per success on Talent Test vs PHY DEF of any opponent in range.
  • CAN be used in the same round as Wheeling Attack: Yes

Since 3rd and 4th Edition fixed the whole problem by removing that restriction I'd say just ignore it. In fact, I'm pretty sure the confusion around this line is the whole reason why it was removed in the next editions.


BUT: If I really had to 'rule' on the meaning of the Classic Edition rule about Wheeling Defense I'd say that since 3rd and 4th Edition seriously nerfed the power of the Talent by reducing its duration from RANK to 'until the end of last round', I would assume that this was to compensate the removal of the restriction and that therefore yes, performing a Wheeling ATTACK would cancel the effect of Wheeling Defense.

admiralnlson
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Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:08 pm

Re: Wheeling Attack and Wheeling Defense

Post by admiralnlson » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:55 pm

Thanks for the answer!

Based on your comments, I understand we are actually playing the 2.5 (Classic) Edition, not the 3rd.
Translations from English to French happening years later make things a bit confusing. :-/

Thanks for the 3rd and 4th edition versions of the skill. They might come in handy as alternatives to the classic one for our game, as they're just simpler to understand and apply.
yes, performing a Wheeling ATTACK would cancel the effect of Wheeling Defense.
I understand you mean here that any Wheeling Attack would make the Wheeling Defense stop immediately and permanently, rather than stop only temporarily (for a round) and then continue 'till its full duration (assuming Wheeling Attack is not used again).
And that you would answer 2.a and 2.b. with
2.a. --> no
2.b. --> Wheeling Defense is no longer active

If anybody has a different interpretation of the Classic description of Wheeling Defense, feel free.

Bonhumm
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Re: Wheeling Attack and Wheeling Defense

Post by Bonhumm » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:33 pm

admiralnlson wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:55 pm
Based on your comments, I understand we are actually playing the 2.5 (Classic) Edition, not the 3rd.
Translations from English to French happening years later make things a bit confusing. :-/
I see, I was thinking you were actually really using 3rd Edition but had stumbled on that Classic Edition book with (what appeared to be) a different description of the rule and were confused between the two of them.

Now, I went looking about Wheeling Defense in SECOND Edition and the line(s) about the mutual restriction between Wheeling Attack and Wheeling Defense is also missing BUT the duration is 'RANK ROUND'S; so my guess is that the following happened:


2nd Edition (No restriction + Rank Rounds duration) = The developer realized the players always used both Talents together and, with the duration based on the Rank, turned the Cavalryman into an overpowered Discipline because the strain of using the Talent was not enough to compensate the advantages. So they decided to put some limits on it in the next editions.

Classic Edition (Restrictions + Test Rank duration) = They DRASTICALLY nerfed the Wheeling Defense by making it so that it could not be used with Wheeling Attack BUT increased its duration to compensate a bit (however this probably made it still quite overpowered). Unfortunately, I suspect you were not the only one coming with question 2.a and 2.b back then so the restrictions probably created a lot of confusion. The developers decided to simplify it in the next editions.

3rd Edition (No restrictions + 2 rounds duration) = The Talents have been nerfed down by reducing the duration thus also achieving clarification (no unclear limitations) and simplification (fixed duration).

4th Edition (No restrictions + 2 rounds duration) = They modified the effect of the Talents to be in synch with the new success system of 4th Edition (+2 per success) while also slightly nerfing its (improved) effect by making character roll against the opponents Physical Defense instead of just automatically getting the effect.

So, in short, I'd say that all the back and forth with those Talents over 4 Editions clearly shows that the Restriction of Classic Edition was a (poor) attempt at reducing the power of Wheeling Defense and that therefore yes, the limitation was intended to be 'mean'.

admiralnlson
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Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:08 pm

Re: Wheeling Attack and Wheeling Defense

Post by admiralnlson » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:28 am

Thanks a lot for taking the time to analyze the rules history and provide answers, Bonhumm. This is much appreciated!

After discussions with the group, we'll go ahead and use the Classic Edition (2.5) version for Wheeling Defense (for consistency, considering that's the Edition we're playing).
And with regard to interpretation of the rule, we'll go for
2.a. --> no
2.b. --> Wheeling Defense is not active at the beginning of the next round, but becomes active again when it is the character's turn to play so long as he/she doe not use Wheeling Attack again, and the total duration of it has not been reached.

i.e. the notion of "same round" considered here is subjective to the character and is the time between 2 consecutives actions (init rolls).
This is what other players in the group have been doing for Talents/effects with similar mechanics.

RickAnderson
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Re: Wheeling Attack and Wheeling Defense

Post by RickAnderson » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:52 pm

WOW, never expected to find that kind of info, thank you ;)

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