High-Circle Preview: Archer

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Mataxes
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Re: High-Circle Preview: Archer

Post by Mataxes » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:12 pm

Yeah, pretty much this.

That stacking ability, by the way, ties into the reasons why Karma refreshes in full every day. I don't remember at this point which idea came first, but... well, we want you to have the Karma to spend on those combos when you need it.
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Re: High-Circle Preview: Archer

Post by Mataxes » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:05 am

In case anybody missed it, a look at a couple of the talents in that Archer progression are featured in today's post.

Kind of a stealth update.
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Re: High-Circle Preview: Archer

Post by Dougansf » Wed Nov 30, 2016 3:59 am

Thanks Josh.

I support the idea of calling it TracER Missile.

Trace Missile sounds like old Arrow Sight, where you could see from the perspective of your arrow.

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Re: High-Circle Preview: Archer

Post by Tattered Rags » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:48 am

Mataxes wrote:In case anybody missed it, a look at a couple of the talents in that Archer progression are featured in today's post.

Kind of a stealth update.
Yes, thanks for the update.

However, I don't like the name "Tracer Missile" as tracer rounds are a modern invention for machine guns to show where you were firing so you could adjust aim. This Talent, if I'm not mistaken, instead helps you locate the target better regardless of where you last fired (kind of like the holotargeting in the new XCOM games). It tags the foe, or some such thing.

I have no suggestions for names, mind you. So, not much help.

Missile Mark? I don't know.
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Re: High-Circle Preview: Archer

Post by The Undying » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:23 am

First, my thanks to both you and panda. To me, this is the kind of stuff that is most interesting. Great to see the thought that goes into these decisions.

I agreed with Sr Rags, "Tracer Missile" just feels unappealing. Granted, I really can't come up with a better solution right now. Everything I can fathom conflicts with other naming conventions or is too close to other Talents for confusion. Part of it might be how the talent manifests. Right now, it sounds like the arrow swerves in impossible ways and hits the target (which is cool, don't get me wrong). This is important because environmental effects could still impact it (since it ignores VISUAL elements). Is the talent used on the shot that pulls other arrows to it, lasting X rounds, or is it used on one round to basically kind of essentially repeat the last shot with tons of bonustes?

Maybe "Beacon Arrow" if it's the "lasts X rounds variant? "Homing Arrow" if used per-round?

This raised a worthwhile question as an aside. Do people see Adepts talking about Talents by name? Kind of "The winds favored my Air Dance on that blow, allowing me to Surprise Strike my opponent, leading into a Momentum Blow." You see this kind of stuff in the real world with martial/mystic arts. Or do you see Adepts as talking more about their abilities in more person, less specific ways? I like the flavor of this, but it's harder to marry that with the scholastic way in which an Adept is instructed in the ways of Talents.

I guess it isn't super relevant. Even if the character says "yes, I summoned my honed Archer essence, entangled the pattern of my target and my arrow, and loosed it with a breath from the fire plane" (which may be how he sees things), it's the player that is most definitely actually going to say, over and over again, "ok, mystic aim and flame arrow."

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Re: High-Circle Preview: Archer

Post by etherial » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:41 am

Dougansf wrote:Thanks Josh.

I support the idea of calling it TracER Missile.

Trace Missile sounds like old Arrow Sight, where you could see from the perspective of your arrow.
Well, the old Trace Missile literally traced the arc of the enemy missile back to the target, allowing for OTH shenanigans. The new version of the Talent deserves a new Name.

I do love how everyone's working on a new Name for "Trace Missile" but there's no comments on there being a Talent Named "Defense". Note: This particular gem stems from ED1, so it's not like it's a new bug, just an old "feature".
The Undying wrote:This raised a worthwhile question as an aside. Do people see Adepts talking about Talents by name? Kind of "The winds favored my Air Dance on that blow, allowing me to Surprise Strike my opponent, leading into a Momentum Blow." You see this kind of stuff in the real world with martial/mystic arts. Or do you see Adepts as talking more about their abilities in more person, less specific ways? I like the flavor of this, but it's harder to marry that with the scholastic way in which an Adept is instructed in the ways of Talents.
My philosophy has always that the characters understand how the game world works as much as possible. So while they won't know the numerical differences of the various armors and weapons (more due to a lack of Statistics than anything else), they can tell which do more damage and at what cost. So I'd say Yes, they are very much aware of what all their Talents are Named, but might not always want to mention them by Name, wanting to keep a few things as Trade Secrets. This gives you the tradeoff of being able to practice your Air Dance during your Karma Ritual, but not having to call out Momentum Attack by Name.

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Re: High-Circle Preview: Archer

Post by Kosmit » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:37 pm

Why for Vital Ward it's Rank to defensive test and for Vital Blow it's Step (Rank+Toughness)?

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Re: High-Circle Preview: Archer

Post by Mataxes » Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:05 pm

We're looking at a new name for Defense. As Morgan commented in one of our back-and-forths, "Names are hard." (At one point one of the Sky Raider Discipline abilities was called "big-ass lightning attack.")

The difference between Vital Ward and Vital Strike is Vital Ward is just a straight add-on to an existing test. (You have it at Rank 5, it allows you to add +5 to your Avoid Blow after you roll it.) Vital Strike is its own separate Damage test. So you hit with your sword, roll that damage, and also hit your opponent with the damage equivalent of a mystically-enhanced Recovery test.

So two Damage tests, not one with a bonus.
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Re: High-Circle Preview: Archer

Post by Tattered Rags » Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:09 pm

Mataxes wrote:We're looking at a new name for Defense. As Morgan commented in one of our back-and-forths, "Names are hard." (At one point one of the Sky Raider Discipline abilities was called "big-ass lightning attack.")
Hahaha! Very true.

Well, crowdsource the effort? If you want, we fans will supply an endless amount of terrible names that hopefully can inspire a good one for you guys.
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Re: High-Circle Preview: Archer

Post by Tanthalas » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:31 pm

Tattered Rags wrote: Yes, thanks for the update.
I definitely like the analysis of the write-up and it is good to hear the design philosophy, thanks for it!

I do have one question that neither you nor Panda touched upon. Why did you decide to increase the Karma Step at 13th Circle? Increasing the Karma Step is a cool idea, and I'm glad to see it in there somewhere, but unlocking it at the Master tier seems like a really late time to introduce the mechanical change. I would have expected to see that change at 9th circle with perhaps a further step increase when entering into the Master Circles. I'm just wondering what the thought is on that, what the intended impact is, and why it is locked to something that is incredibly late game. Will this be something that all Disciplines get and if so will they get it at the same time? How will it stack with other introduced tricks to up your karma die type?
The Undying wrote: This raised a worthwhile question as an aside. Do people see Adepts talking about Talents by name? Kind of "The winds favored my Air Dance on that blow, allowing me to Surprise Strike my opponent, leading into a Momentum Blow." You see this kind of stuff in the real world with martial/mystic arts. Or do you see Adepts as talking more about their abilities in more person, less specific ways? I like the flavor of this, but it's harder to marry that with the scholastic way in which an Adept is instructed in the ways of Talents.
I always felt like Earthdawn, more than any other system I played, had very little abstraction between the game's world and it's mechanics. People in-setting can acknowledge one another of achieving certain Circles in their chosen Discipline. They recognize when they have taken grievous wounds. They acknowledge when they are honing a particular Talent. They are always looking for the next kaer to explore to build their legend.

Other popular fantasy games typically have me assuming the opposite. In most settings it would be very weird to have a guy walk up to a group of strangers at a tavern and say, 'Hey, I'm a fifth level fighter. I have a high constitution and many hit points. I recently got better at my Perception skill, which is an ability fighters usually lack. I also have recently picked up the Great Cleave feat! Can we find a dungeon full of riches together and gain some experience!?'

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I always try to assume that characters in Earthdawn intrinsically understand the mechanics behind their world and the names for these mechanics, but I don't really do that in any other system.
The Undying wrote: Maybe "Beacon Arrow" if it's the "lasts X rounds variant? "Homing Arrow" if used per-round?
I'm not really clear on how Trace Missile works. I think the implication is, after hitting a target, the shooter can ignore visibility penalties to the target and get a bonus to Mystic Aim tests against the target for some number of rounds. Looking at Player's Guide Talents as a frame of reference, only one has 'Arrow' in the name, Flame Arrow and it is a Talent that actually changes the properties of a piece of ammunition. There are two talents that have 'Missile' in the name, Call Missile and Missile Weapons, use of the word 'Missile' seems to clarify to me that it works with any ranged attack. There are also four Talents that have 'Shot' in the name, but all of those seem to be modifiers to the current attack as opposed to future attacks.

If the fluff for the Talent is that the a missile weapon lodged in the target is communicating to the Archer in some way I would say 'Tracing Missile' or 'Marking Missile' or something like that could work well. There are lots of '-ing' talents and it could work well to denote an ongoing effect. Alternately the fluff might be that the Archer already successfully hit the target once, and now is more confident and capable of repeating the performance, in which case maybe something like 'Target Trace' or 'Tracking Shot' could be good, since you are able to track back and find your target now that he has been struck. I think it comes down to the feeling you wish to evoke with the Talent.
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