Hypothetical Talent: Forge Arcana
- The Undying
- Posts:696
- Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm
To my knowledge, this is NOT a thing in any previous Earthdawn edition, but since we'll be seeing the Weaponsmith Discipline preview before too long, I wanted to raise an idea:
What do people think about a Weaponsmith Talent called something along the lines of Forge Arcana that acts as a mirror to Forge Weapon/Armor but for either/both of Threadweaving and/or Spellcasting?
Spellcasting focii aren't really a thing in Earthdawn, but that isn't to say they COULDN'T be. Forge Arcana would fit in that niche, allowing magicians to essentially craft a focus out of either a mundane object or Thread Item. There'd need to be some extra mechanics described that effectively limit each magician to using a single focus at any given point.
Threadweaving bonuses would be a bit dicier as this Talent has a lot of uses beyond Spellcasting. Maybe there's nothing wrong with that as, barring interesting uses imposed by the GM, this talent really only exists for Thread Item threadweaving for non-magician Disciplines, and that's mostly just a time sink performed daily in downtime until it succeeds. However, there's an easy enough fix: the Forge Arcana text explicitly states that the bonus only applies when performing Threadweaving when preparing spells for Spellcasting.
Basically, I've always found it disappointing that magicians don't have a money sink for improvement. Pre-ED4, spells could be that sink: "gotta catch 'em all" with a "no LP for spells" optional rule meant that a magician could just keep buying up spells. However, that option is gone with ED4. Aside from that, that's just a new way to use existing resources rather than a way to make your existing resources better. Forge Arcana is the logical peg to fit in that hole, although it would require the extra focus scaffolding.
I'd make this a Warden tier optional Talent. Warden is logical: we get Forge Weapon in Novice, then Forge Armor in Journeyman, so Forge Arcana makes sense at Warden. This also hamstrings availability: readily accessible Weaponsmith vendors of Warden tier are likely few and far between, meaning that Adepts either need a companion of that tier or have an in with a sufficiently advanced society that employs one, and with that scarcity, it can have a higher cost curve than the the Forge talents (to help limit how many bonuses Adepts are actually likely to get from the Talent). As an optional Talent, this further reduces how often the Talent likely exists in the wild, and it makes it more simple for tables that want to slip it into their Weaponsmith Discipline portfolio (whereas changing Discipline Talents should not be done lightly in the slightest). This would also be the time to discuss it as a community - ED4 Warden+ doesn't technically exist yet, so having this idea as a community-created thing for people to use out of the gate means that tables wouldn't have to retroactively add it later if they think it's interesting.
What do you think?
What do people think about a Weaponsmith Talent called something along the lines of Forge Arcana that acts as a mirror to Forge Weapon/Armor but for either/both of Threadweaving and/or Spellcasting?
Spellcasting focii aren't really a thing in Earthdawn, but that isn't to say they COULDN'T be. Forge Arcana would fit in that niche, allowing magicians to essentially craft a focus out of either a mundane object or Thread Item. There'd need to be some extra mechanics described that effectively limit each magician to using a single focus at any given point.
Threadweaving bonuses would be a bit dicier as this Talent has a lot of uses beyond Spellcasting. Maybe there's nothing wrong with that as, barring interesting uses imposed by the GM, this talent really only exists for Thread Item threadweaving for non-magician Disciplines, and that's mostly just a time sink performed daily in downtime until it succeeds. However, there's an easy enough fix: the Forge Arcana text explicitly states that the bonus only applies when performing Threadweaving when preparing spells for Spellcasting.
Basically, I've always found it disappointing that magicians don't have a money sink for improvement. Pre-ED4, spells could be that sink: "gotta catch 'em all" with a "no LP for spells" optional rule meant that a magician could just keep buying up spells. However, that option is gone with ED4. Aside from that, that's just a new way to use existing resources rather than a way to make your existing resources better. Forge Arcana is the logical peg to fit in that hole, although it would require the extra focus scaffolding.
I'd make this a Warden tier optional Talent. Warden is logical: we get Forge Weapon in Novice, then Forge Armor in Journeyman, so Forge Arcana makes sense at Warden. This also hamstrings availability: readily accessible Weaponsmith vendors of Warden tier are likely few and far between, meaning that Adepts either need a companion of that tier or have an in with a sufficiently advanced society that employs one, and with that scarcity, it can have a higher cost curve than the the Forge talents (to help limit how many bonuses Adepts are actually likely to get from the Talent). As an optional Talent, this further reduces how often the Talent likely exists in the wild, and it makes it more simple for tables that want to slip it into their Weaponsmith Discipline portfolio (whereas changing Discipline Talents should not be done lightly in the slightest). This would also be the time to discuss it as a community - ED4 Warden+ doesn't technically exist yet, so having this idea as a community-created thing for people to use out of the gate means that tables wouldn't have to retroactively add it later if they think it's interesting.
What do you think?
Re: Hypothetical Talent: Forge Arcana
Mages can albo profit from forge armor and giving bonuses to talents is in thread items niche.
But...
Foci is not that nad idea although bonuses should be low to not surpass thread items.
But...
Foci is not that nad idea although bonuses should be low to not surpass thread items.
- The Undying
- Posts:696
- Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm
Re: Hypothetical Talent: Forge Arcana
Good point, Kosmit.
I'd personally be okay with Forge Arcana providing a bonus to Effect Step (needs to specifically be Step to limit it to rolls, thereby preventing it from bleeding into spells that can target up to Effect creatures and such). That would keep it more inline with Forge Weapon, which improves damage. However, I got the feeling people would be less willing to accept a Talent that enhances spell damage versus a Talent that just effectively helps magicians get their spell off the ground faster and/or land on target better.
I'd personally be okay with Forge Arcana providing a bonus to Effect Step (needs to specifically be Step to limit it to rolls, thereby preventing it from bleeding into spells that can target up to Effect creatures and such). That would keep it more inline with Forge Weapon, which improves damage. However, I got the feeling people would be less willing to accept a Talent that enhances spell damage versus a Talent that just effectively helps magicians get their spell off the ground faster and/or land on target better.
Re: Hypothetical Talent: Forge Arcana
So it's a Thread Item that grants ranks of Willforce?
(I always look to existing mechanics when trying crazy stuff. Making talents/spell effects into Thread items is a fun pastime.)
(I always look to existing mechanics when trying crazy stuff. Making talents/spell effects into Thread items is a fun pastime.)
- The Undying
- Posts:696
- Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm
Re: Hypothetical Talent: Forge Arcana
No. The specific design element here is to provide a money-only sink for magicians to improve themselves. They currently lack that. Close/Range combatants have Forge Weapon. Forge Arcana would fill a similar role - allowing a magician to pay an Adept to forge a thing (which I'm tentatively calling a focus) which the magician can use when casting in order to receive a flat bonus benefit with no investment Strain.
Thread Items don't fill this roll. First, they require LP. Second, they aren't laser-focused like the Forge Talents are; i.e., Thread Items scatter multiple benefits rather than being completely (or even near-completely) devoted to a single bonus or Thread Rank improvement. Third, they don't scale as high as the Forge Talents - Forge Weapon can easily stack a bonus of 7-8 before a GM likely considers high Rank in the Talent scarce; 7-8 Rank Thread Items, even if they were laser focused on a single thing, are going to be exceptionally rare (and higher cost tier in LP).
Thread Items don't fill this roll. First, they require LP. Second, they aren't laser-focused like the Forge Talents are; i.e., Thread Items scatter multiple benefits rather than being completely (or even near-completely) devoted to a single bonus or Thread Rank improvement. Third, they don't scale as high as the Forge Talents - Forge Weapon can easily stack a bonus of 7-8 before a GM likely considers high Rank in the Talent scarce; 7-8 Rank Thread Items, even if they were laser focused on a single thing, are going to be exceptionally rare (and higher cost tier in LP).
Re: Hypothetical Talent: Forge Arcana
Interesting. Yah the "Thread Wand" from the older books maxes out at 4 ranks, gives total bonuses of +2 Spell Defense, +2 Spellcasting, +1 Effect Tests.
Re: Hypothetical Talent: Forge Arcana
So Forge Arcana should apply only to effect of damaging spells.
- The Undying
- Posts:696
- Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:25 pm
Re: Hypothetical Talent: Forge Arcana
Well, that's why I've suggested the limitation for Effect Step. There isn't really a clear line on "damage spell," especially as a true game mechanic. Meanwhile, things definitely either have an Effect Step or have a non-Step effect. Yeah, there will be some things that get caught that are non-damage (e.g., Icy Surface), but I think this is a much clearer line than something that that isn't a true distinction.
Re: Hypothetical Talent: Forge Arcana
I think you should be careful with other effects than damage.
Remember that Forge Weapon works only for weapon damage and if you want to give mages sink for resources it should do the same. So bonus only to DMG spells. Effect step would be to versatile in my opinion but again - It's only my opinion
Remember that Forge Weapon works only for weapon damage and if you want to give mages sink for resources it should do the same. So bonus only to DMG spells. Effect step would be to versatile in my opinion but again - It's only my opinion
Re: Hypothetical Talent: Forge Arcana
I like the concept, and agree with others that it should be improving Damage, just like Forge Weapon does.
I especially like this because it seems (from limited exposure to 4E) that casters damage output took a significant reduction, to allow them to become more Controller-based.
I think it might make more sense as a Forge Weapon Knack around Rank 6.
I especially like this because it seems (from limited exposure to 4E) that casters damage output took a significant reduction, to allow them to become more Controller-based.
I think it might make more sense as a Forge Weapon Knack around Rank 6.