Questions about Questors

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
Post Reply
ChrisDDickey
Posts:1011
Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:02 pm
Questions about Questors

Post by ChrisDDickey » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:21 am

I have been reading through the new Questors book, and just want to double check that I have not missed something.
As questors follow the ideals and goals of their patron, their connection to the Passion grows stronger. This allows the questor to use Legend Points to purchase higher ranks in the Questor devotion, advance granted devotions, and learn new granted devotions.
Advancing or learning devotions requires the questor to commune with their patron using the Questor devotion as described on page 179. No test is required, the character simply spends the Legend Points and increases the devotion rank. Only one devotion may be purchased or increased per day, and a devotion cannot be increased more than one rank at a time.
In 3rd edition, Questors growth was limited by the AoD (Acts of Devotion) they did. DP (Devotion Points) were a bit like LP, you did enough AoD to earn enough DP to unlock a Devotion Rank. Now as I understand it, that is no longer the case. DP are kind of like 1st edition Karma. You earn it and spend it as bonus dice.

So I kept reading expecting to find the thing that limits how high/fast I can advance as a questor and did not find it! Or at least the only limit I found was now much LP you were willing to spend on your Questor Rank, a requirement to do one quest per tier (which I admit is could be a huge firebrake), and the possibility that it might also be limited by a GM's and/or players regard for roleplaying "as questors follow the ideals and goals of their patron".

Am I correct that the only "Crunchy" rule is LP and the quest? If I have some LP and a few days of downtime I can declare an undying devotion to (insert passions name here) and then spend the next few days in communion with my passion increasing my questor rank to 4 right off the bat? The only requirement is that I need to do one quest to raise to rank 5, and another to raise to rank 9?


Question Two.
How often is it expected that Questors will commune with their passion? The reason I ask is because you get 1/2/3 DP each time you do it. It seems to me that (crunchy rules) a Questor hardly needs to go out of his way to perform AoD (just enough to avoid falling out of favor with his passion), and get the majority of his DP from communing every day. Especially if he gets to commune with his passion every day of downtime. An Adherent of Upendal can spent one week repairing a castle for 5 DP. Or he can spend an hour a day for a week communing with his passion for 14 DP. I suppose he could do both for 19 DP a week, all off-camera. On the third hand, a Questor of Upendal does not have much that he CAN do on-camera to earn DP.

Back in 1st edition I had GMs that did not allow karma rituals every day, and very much limited them in downtime. If the group was taking a few weeks off for forging / research, it was not allowed for everybody to do a karma ritual every day to end the downtime with maxed out karma (because karma was a precious resource, and he felt it should not be stockpiled by resting). I am wondering if the intention is that all Questors will have their DP pools maxed out at the end of an extended downtime due to communing with their passion?


Question Three.
What is the expected or suggested ratio to Devotion Points earned on-camera, as opposed to off-camera?
Example: A questor of Florinious might raise his sides flag en enemy territory at the turning point of a battle. Or he might spend a week organizing a celebration. The first will always be on-camera during an adventure. The 2nd will usually be off-camera during downtime.
Specifically, most of the examples for various questors include "spend a week doing something" for a major act of devotion worth 5 Devotion Points. But many (but not all) also give examples of things that could be done while adventuring. And of course you can get a lot by Communing with your Passion which costs nothing except an hour a day.
Once again, using only the published examples, the only '"adventuring" option a questor of Upendal has is to protect items from destruction.

ChrisDDickey
Posts:1011
Joined:Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:02 pm

Re: Questions about Questors

Post by ChrisDDickey » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:30 am

Question four:
Are Knacks (or should I maybe say "Devotion Knacks") available to Devotions?

Clearly "Talent Knacks" are not available to devotions, since they can only be learned for Talents available through your Discipline, and devotions are nether Talents, nor though the Discipline. But are there Devotion Knacks that follow the same basic proceedures?

For example Questors of Florinious can acquire the Devotion "Aerobatic Defense" which is "as the Talent". Assuming they had the Devotion at rank 4, could they acquire a Devotion Knack "Acrobatic Recovery"?

User avatar
Mataxes
Posts:745
Joined:Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:39 pm
Location:The Great Library
Contact:

Re: Questions about Questors

Post by Mataxes » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:54 pm

ChrisDDickey wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:21 am
I have been reading through the new Questors book, and just want to double check that I have not missed something.

So I kept reading expecting to find the thing that limits how high/fast I can advance as a questor and did not find it! Or at least the only limit I found was now much LP you were willing to spend on your Questor Rank, a requirement to do one quest per tier (which I admit is could be a huge firebrake), and the possibility that it might also be limited by a GM's and/or players regard for roleplaying "as questors follow the ideals and goals of their patron".

Am I correct that the only "Crunchy" rule is LP and the quest? If I have some LP and a few days of downtime I can declare an undying devotion to (insert passions name here) and then spend the next few days in communion with my passion increasing my questor rank to 4 right off the bat? The only requirement is that I need to do one quest to raise to rank 5, and another to raise to rank 9?
From a mechanical "crunch" standpoint, you are correct. However, I believe (and I hope the advice and essays in the first part of the Game Information chapter convey it adequately) playing a questor involves a not-insignificant amount of roleplaying, and the GM is, to some extent, acting as the Passion when it comes to advancement.

The rules were designed with the basic assumption that the GM and player(s) are adults, and going to be open and communicate their desires and feelings on the matter. Without that... the dysfunction can't really be fixed by mechanical impositions. Broken play will still be broken (as the player seeks loopholes, and wrestles with the GM for control), and it just hinders good play.
Question Two.
How often is it expected that Questors will commune with their passion? The reason I ask is because you get 1/2/3 DP each time you do it. It seems to me that (crunchy rules) a Questor hardly needs to go out of his way to perform AoD (just enough to avoid falling out of favor with his passion), and get the majority of his DP from communing every day. Especially if he gets to commune with his passion every day of downtime. An Adherent of Upendal can spent one week repairing a castle for 5 DP. Or he can spend an hour a day for a week communing with his passion for 14 DP. I suppose he could do both for 19 DP a week, all off-camera. On the third hand, a Questor of Upendal does not have much that he CAN do on-camera to earn DP.
Two things. It's expected within the fictional reality of the setting that a questor will commune with their Passion every day. We're talking about somebody who has decided to dedicate themselves to following the ideals of a powerful and mysterious spiritual being -- it's a kind of activism, or a deep religious pursuit (though the religious analogues can get fraught and fuzzy).

The idea behind communing to gain a daily pittance of Devotion Points is to recognize that a questor is probably going to be doing something every day in pursuit of those ideals, and that you don't need to role-play every little interaction that might result in Devotion Points. Assuming they aren't doing things in opposition to their patron's ideals, a questor can eventually "top off" their devotion point pool.

But it's not exactly fast (if you aren't doing other acts). You're looking at weeks to go from empty to full. At Rank 1, it takes ten days to fill up the pool, and the higher your rank the longer it takes (there's a little bit of... rebate... on that when you jump tiers -- but you're still looking at a couple of weeks).

The idea is that points from communion don't really help fuel your power. If you're only going to be spending a point or two day... it works, but then you're not making the most of the powers you've been granted. And if you aren't performing additional acts of devotion... why should your patron reward you with advancement?
Back in 1st edition I had GMs that did not allow karma rituals every day, and very much limited them in downtime. If the group was taking a few weeks off for forging / research, it was not allowed for everybody to do a karma ritual every day to end the downtime with maxed out karma (because karma was a precious resource, and he felt it should not be stockpiled by resting). I am wondering if the intention is that all Questors will have their DP pools maxed out at the end of an extended downtime due to communing with their passion?
Why not?

I've never been one to restrict karma ritual for adepts, or limit the flow of karma (as is probably clear from the karma-based changes in ED4). I see it as kind of like survival rules -- you know, tracking food, water, fatigue, and stuff like that. Helpful if you're looking to tell a certain kind of story, or evoke a certain mood, but a pain in the ass and lots of busywork if you're not.

Even with the more permissive karma rules, it's still a limited resource. Obviously, some Disciplines will go through their pools faster than others, and that depends on what's going on in the game. But player characters make a lot of rolls -- and therefore a lot of opportunities to spend karma. For all its permissiveness, I think ED4 is roughly equivalent to previous editions when it comes to karma budgeting. (There are a lot of variables that go into that, but basically ED1 has larger pools with a slower refill rate, where ED4 has smaller pools with faster refresh.)

All of this is a long way of saying, "Why shouldn't a questor PC be full up on devotion points after a long enough stretch of downtime?" I don't see any need to restrict it (though if you want to for the purposes of the tone you want to set, go for it). (And I would probably run it that additional acts of devotion would be something a character would need to dedicate time to at the exclusion of other things. For isntance, if they're training to advance their Discipline Circle, they can't be walking around looking for good deeds to perform.)
Question Three.
What is the expected or suggested ratio to Devotion Points earned on-camera, as opposed to off-camera?
Example: A questor of Florinious might raise his sides flag en enemy territory at the turning point of a battle. Or he might spend a week organizing a celebration. The first will always be on-camera during an adventure. The 2nd will usually be off-camera during downtime.
Specifically, most of the examples for various questors include "spend a week doing something" for a major act of devotion worth 5 Devotion Points. But many (but not all) also give examples of things that could be done while adventuring. And of course you can get a lot by Communing with your Passion which costs nothing except an hour a day.
Once again, using only the published examples, the only '"adventuring" option a questor of Upendal has is to protect items from destruction.
What works for your game?

Much like a desire to pursue certain Disciplines, a character that wants to follow a certain Passion is making a statement about what they want to have as a focus in the game -- at least some of the time. So if a character quests for Upandal, the GM should put some opportunities for that to come into the spotlight from time to time. Just like you should give spotlight opportunities for each character. (Does the Troubadour get a chance to show off his social-fu? Is the Wizard given opportunities to investigate magical stuff? Does the Swordmaster get to stab things?)

Some questors aren't suited to the adventuring life. That's just their nature -- they serve their Passion by serving the community.

But this is where it gets back to open and honest communication between the player and GM. We've provided a framework, with some examples, but they aren't exhaustive and there's a lot of room to customize and adapt. Everybody game and everybody's needs in the game are different. Decide, based on your style of play and the needs of the game (and its players) what counts and what doesn't as far as "on screen" and "off screen" acts of devotion, and what even counts as an act of devotion. Its an ongoing discussion, and can grow and change over the course of the campaign.

You bring up Upandal -- read that chapter. There are two questors of the same Passion who have different ideas, and probably have some differences (along with some similarities) when it comes to their acts of devotion. Who's right? According to Upandal, they both are.
Question four:
Are Knacks (or should I maybe say "Devotion Knacks") available to Devotions?
After a whole bunch of airy philosophy and "Just do what works for you, man," this one has a solid answer.

We did not intend for questors to have access to knacks through their devotions. However, if there is a knack that isn't listed as a devotion for a given Passion, there is nothing that says the knack can't be granted in its own right (it would just take up a devotion slot). Remember, the devotion lists aren't exhaustive.
Josh Harrison - josh@fasagames.com
Earthdawn Developer, Forum Admin

Personal Website: www.loremerchant.com

Post Reply