Optional Rules for Companion

[BRW]

Thank you for the answer!

My problem was not with extending the Fibonacci sequence (I hoped this was clear from the question). I think the question rather splits as follows:

1. Are there any reasons not to extend the LP costs via the same recurrence as up to rank 15? The mathematics behind the step system seems perfectly adapted to deal with arbitrarily large values of any parameters involved, way better than in systems whose core is based on percents or than d20 (in the step system, we get more or less normal distributions with the expected value roughy equal to the step, at least in case of the steps big enough). So maybe something would really break down in a subtle manner in some other place in the system? The cap seemed so arbitrary that my guess was no, but making it a two-sentence optional rule would make this quite clear.

2. Would going past 15 in a game be abhorrent and disgraceful or just unnecessary? The mechanics of Earthdawn is extremely close to the setting itself, much closer than in most games, so maybe there is something in the world that would make further progression incoherent? Is the number 15 somehow dignified? I imagine that it well could be, but I do not now this setting good enough to make a safe guess. Maybe the cap is there to actually represent something (nota bene, the cap for skills seems perfectly justified).

From your answer, I guess that the answer to both questions should be that the cap is indeed somewhat arbitrary. I think that allowing to lift the cap as the optional rule would make it clear to everyone. Otherwise, I would be unsure as a GM, whether or not to allow further progression if it otherwise fits the mood of the campaign.

Once again, thank you for the reply.

[The Undying]

Had a very nice response here. Forum ate it when it fell down.

Basically, no, there probably isn't a reason except that it'd take more work developing higher-level material and the balance problems that start to trickle in at Journeyman and get super super bad by Master are definitely not going to get better with more Circles. Also, spells are literally world-changing by Circle 15 - how do you go up from that?

[BRW]

Since the spells are world-changing at some point, then there is simply no reason to go past beyond that point. I have no problem with that.

I was not thinking specifically of going up with circles (I am fine with this, since the circles are really part of the setting), but rather with pure ranks of talents plus maybe some crunchy stuff people can get better with, like knack design system so that it doesn't get completely dull number increasement.

Admittedly, I didn't have any very specific solution in mind. I just thought that something along that lines could be considered by the authors as a viable set of optional rules.

Honestly, I didn't really think of any actual use of the unbounded progression in game. I am new to Earthdawn (not so much to RPGs) and the cap for talents striked me as artificial and not very elegant, since the step mechanics makes any cap really unnecessary. So my question was mostly for aesthetic reasons.

Say, the cap for skills in the Burning Wheel also could theoretically be lifted, but this would take lots of adjustments elsewhere in the system. In the old WoD cap of five dots could be increased along with some in-game changes to the characters, so it represents something, so it better not be changed on a whim.

Basically, looking at ED, which I really enjoy, I was put off by the artificial restriction which seemed not really crucial, and I wanted to understand whether one can have more room there or not. And I thought that if the answer is yes, it could be written for the record somewhere in the book.

[Kosmit]

Maybe after 15 circle you could gather options from earlier tiers but as Master's cost?

[Lys]

Post 15th Circle play doesn't strike me as a useful direction to spend writing time and book space in. Very, very few groups ever make it to Circle 15 in the first place, and those who do get that far probably have enough system mastery to chart their own way from there. It's just not someone thing that is going to be useful for the player base as a whole, and as such it's not a good use of resources.

As an aside though, it did always bugged me how Novice, Journeyman, and Warden all span 4 Circles, but Master only spans 3 Circles. It always seemed to me like the progression suggested that Disciplines had 16 Circles, not 15.

[BRW]

I see this point and I sort of agree.

The more I think about it, I come to the conclusion that I would be happy if it were just stated somewhere in print that, optionally, GM's may lift the strict cap of 15 ranks and nothing will break down (with LP costs given by Fibonacci sequence). This shouldn't be really space-consuming. It would be just nice to know that you can have some extra room.

[Tattered Rags]

As an aside though, it did always bugged me how Novice, Journeyman, and Warden all span 4 Circles, but Master only spans 3 Circles. It always seemed to me like the progression suggested that Disciplines had 16 Circles, not 15.

Perhaps there used to be, but with the declining magic level these legendary strengths are lost, and history has confused Circle 16 with 15.

[Loba]

One optional rule I would really love to see is some guidelines for the continued advancement which is not capped at any point. In particular, a possibility to advance talents past rank 15.

I see some people have done the math for you, and some have said there is no technical reason.

You know, I have used many systems over the years and in fact made two different systems where we played EarthDawn but with my own system. I LOVE the EarthDawn system precisely because the dice are bizarre and you get enjoyable off the chart rolls.

That being said - you really aren't playing EarthDawn if you extend the system. Assume you hit "Grand Master" tier or something for Circles 17-20. What happens to Great Leap? Sure, maybe it just gets that extra few ranks. If you proceed with that line of thinking then the items, difficulties and such just go down one level and it feels video-game-ish. Verjigorm is now your toy.

I'd recommend keeping the system locked at 15 (Master) and any mysteries beyond that are with custom Thread Weaving concepts and custom Talents learned or honed or invented.

If you prefer to go above 15 - I'd think it more likely to move to Demi-God / God / Super-Hero power levels. Think Exalted or Champions or whatnot. For a specific example, imagine that a Circle 17 character now has access to a modifier Knack that allows your Great Leap to change from yards to decayards or even miles. Imagine something similar for Winning Smile affecting everyone who can see the character. The point is - once above Master Tier, the powers are so "overpowering" that dealing with Mortal Issues doesn't even garner the character's attention. Speaking with the Passions or other powerful beings becomes the character's mind's new food.

Certainly the numbers allow it - if you just use the normal system - but a Great Dragon isn't so great any longer.

[Kosmit]

Hitting 15+ is a very nice perspective... fighting Named Spirits, visiting other Netherworlds. But it's only good for short campaign. Otherwise it will be like high lvl DnD campaign which is mostly boring...

[DrJoker]

There's already an Optional Rule in 3e that introduces something like that. Fleeing From Combat on page 229: "A character who wants to move to get away from a close combat fight he is involved in can only do so if his Initiative Test result is higher than that of his opponents." In my game, we interpreted it as also preventing you from running past enemies whose initiative wasn't lower than yours.

Wow, that's too harsh, to the point of boring combat. Only people with high initiatives ever get to move. It also means no chance for escape for archers and casters who get into melee.

Well, no. In 3rd ED you'd have to combine it with the Delayed Action Combat Rule. If you cant move because of low initiative, you have to delay your action until next round. Then you would win Initiative by Default and dont have to roll for it.
It boils down to giving up a standard action to be able to move away from the fighter or bring yourself into an advantagous position. It's a neat ruling system and gives the warrior discipline more weight, since the warrior is the only one who may act freely on the battle field, as it should be.