Damage Replacement Talents

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
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etherial
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Damage Replacement Talents

Post by etherial » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:23 pm

FASA Games, on ED4PG120, wrote:Unless noted otherwise, a character may only use a given talent once per round.
Now, the players' assumption is that Damage Replacement Effects can be used freely whenever they damage someone, but none of the Damage Replacement Talents actually say they do. This is particularly vexing with Claw Frenzy/Claw Shape where clearly the intention is for you to use Claw Shape on several attacks in the round.

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Re: Damage Replacement Talents

Post by ChrisDDickey » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:19 pm

I would say that Claw Frenzy modifies Claw Shape, it clearly says that each attack is made with Claw Shape. So even though Claw Shape does not say it can be used multiple times per round, Claw Frenzy clearly clearly implies that Claw Shape can be used multiple times per round when using Claw Frenzy.

I would say the same might be true for Charge and Double Charge. Double Charge might be modifying the usage of Charge.

The question is can Claw Frenzy be used with Unarmed Combat, Swift Kick, and Second Attack all at the same time, or does the Claw Shape increase damage only for one of the attacks, but because Claw Shape can only be used once per round the others use normal unarmed damage.

The same situation applies with all other damage replacements such as Surprise Strike, Down Strike Etc. If a character with surprise strike gets multiple attacks against a knocked down opponent, to they all get the Surprise Strike bonus?

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etherial
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Re: Damage Replacement Talents

Post by etherial » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:25 pm

ChrisDDickey wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:19 pm
The question is can Claw Frenzy be used with Unarmed Combat, Swift Kick, and Second Attack all at the same time, or does the Claw Shape increase damage only for one of the attacks, but because Claw Shape can only be used once per round the others use normal unarmed damage.
or Air Dance+Unarmed Combat

Ooh. Momentum Attack actually has rules that say you can't assume you get to use the Damage Replacement effect but specifically lets you use the Damage Replacement effect again.
ChrisDDickey wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:19 pm
The same situation applies with all other damage replacements such as Surprise Strike, Down Strike Etc. If a character with surprise strike gets multiple attacks against a knocked down opponent, to they all get the Surprise Strike bonus?
or Shield Bash...

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The Undying
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Re: Damage Replacement Talents

Post by The Undying » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:14 pm

Yeah, the wording in Momentum Attack is weird ...

Restricting damage replacements to once per round is interesting. It helps reign in some of the damage differential between Spell and Close/Ranged combat, since the latter can't just keep throwing extra damage on the fire with extra attacks. It also encourages players to spread that LP to multiple damage replacement Talents so that they can use multiple per round (if they even have multiple available), which also lowers the extra damage (since advancement is spread out a bit rather than dumped into one).

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Re: Damage Replacement Talents

Post by etherial » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:32 pm

The Undying wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:14 pm
Restricting damage replacements to once per round is interesting. It helps reign in some of the damage differential between Spell and Close/Ranged combat, since the latter can't just keep throwing extra damage on the fire with extra attacks. It also encourages players to spread that LP to multiple damage replacement Talents so that they can use multiple per round (if they even have multiple available), which also lowers the extra damage (since advancement is spread out a bit rather than dumped into one).
Sort of. Willforce explicitly lets you use it multiple times in a round, but only for a single spell and only when rolled simultaneously. What happens if you have two Life Circles of One? Do you only get to roll Willforce on one Life Circle per round?

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The Undying
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Re: Damage Replacement Talents

Post by The Undying » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:53 pm

By my reading (since there is no +1 instance in Life Circle of One), the only way to cast it twice per round would be Spellcasting + Concise Casting (and the only with the latter if it's in an Enhanced Matrix). Given that it's two different Talents, doesn't seem much different than the Close/Ranged combat doing something like Melee Weapon + Second Attack.

My comment about the reigning things in was more focused on the Strain involved. Close/Ranged combatants tend to have far more health available to pour into Strain. So, if a damage replacement can be used multiple times per round, then Close/Ranged combatants can, by the numbers, use it more times than a Spell combatant. And I'm not talking just "I use it til I pass out," I mean more "I use it until I'm not comfortable with the closeness to my Unconsciousness Rating."

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Re: Damage Replacement Talents

Post by Mataxes » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:25 am

Life Circle of One can have multiple instances at once with a little preparation (it's something called out specifically in the spell description -- nested circles as multiple lines of defense). After all, it has a duration of at least one minute, so you can have one active while another is being cast.

As far as damage replacement talents, they can be used whenever appropriate. (Basically, they ignore the once-per-round rule.) That's the way I've always played them and think the restriction adds unnecessary bookkeeping to combat (in terms of keeping track of what has/hasn't been used in a given round) without adding anything useful I can see.
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The Undying
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Re: Damage Replacement Talents

Post by The Undying » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:15 am

Mataxes wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:25 am
Life Circle of One can have multiple instances at once with a little preparation (it's something called out specifically in the spell description -- nested circles as multiple lines of defense). After all, it has a duration of at least one minute, so you can have one active while another is being cast.
Life Circle of One can have multiple instances, yes, but you cannot cast it more than once per turn (until Concise Casting at Circle 12 ... or Versatile ... the forever complicator). Not playing word games at all, the discussion was just about the restrictions of using Damage Replacement multiple times per round. Casting it once per round over multiple rounds so that multiple are present is still once per round, meaning you can safely use Willforce for each (since it's once per round). :)

I'm down with the idea that Damage Replacement Talents bypass the "once per turn" restriction, but as etherial opened this thread with, that isn't expressed in the rules. Do you think this is errata material, or just a "tables should feel free to allow it multiple times per round to avoid bookkeeping" opinion?

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Re: Damage Replacement Talents

Post by Mataxes » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:01 am

Same-turn casting on Life Circle is irrelevant. The question was regading Willforce, which could come into play when a valid creature tries to breach the circle.

Each circle can only repel one breach attempt per round. This is why multiple undead/entities can overwhelm them. If you have nested circles and stay in the center, you get multiple layers of protection. For example:

I have two nested circles in place (successfully cast a couple rounds apart, but the minutes+ duration allows then to both be active at once). Two ghouls are attacking. The first one hits the outer circle, I make the Spellcasting test as indicated in the spell and succeed. The ghoul is driven back, and takes WIL+2 damage. I may use Willforce to enhance this effect test. The next ghoul takes its action. It passes the outer circe no problem (as it has repelled one target), but hits the inner circle. Another successful Spellcasting test, and it is repelled, also taking WIL+2 damage. I can also use Willforce on this effect test.
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Re: Damage Replacement Talents

Post by The Undying » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:15 am

Yep, my bad! I skimmed the text, was treating the Effect test as being set at casting (like Icy Surface), but it's clearly done whenever an Undead creature attempts to pass the barrier. Sorry for the confusion!

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