Collective Issues with the Earthdawn 4e Game System/Engine

Discussion on the Earthdawn game line, errata, and feedback not related to playing or GMing.
Telarus
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Re: Collective Issues with the Earthdawn 4e Game System/Engine

Post by Telarus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:57 pm

In my games Spot Armor Flaw works on all opponents. (And we use the 'law of parsimony' to not overthink these questions at the table.)

It is simply "how to I send damage to the most vulnerable parts of my target". Those vulnerable parts may change as a namegiver wears different external armor. The game rates "armor" as the difference from a civilian namegiver (human, lets say) of average build and willpower, but my Silat (Indonesian martial arts school) teaches that even us monkeys are armored.

The angles of the skull and the outside of the fore-arms are large armored areas that can take hits, the soft underside of the skull/throat and the soft muscles on the inside of the fore-arms are the 'armor flaw' spots. Similarly, it depends on the context of the attack. If I am striking with a blade in practice, I am envisioning soft fleshy targets to lacerate or cut through to disable the opponent's musculature. If I have a stick or axe (bludgeoning weapons) va an unarmored target, I am envisioning strikes to hard bony areas like the temple, wrist, forearm, elbow, shoulder, ribs, hip, knee, etc in order to BREAK something and destroy the opponent's structure.

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The Undying
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Re: Collective Issues with the Earthdawn 4e Game System/Engine

Post by The Undying » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:01 pm

Lys wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:19 pm
Though it probably should have been named Spot Weak Point or something like that, it's not a big deal.
Yeah, I think this is ultimately the core.

Is it confusing that a Talent named "Spot Armor Flaw" has nothing to do what Joe 6-pack gamer likely knows about "armor" (mass media generally tells us it's something worn, the system tells us it's something worn or natural)? We have empirical evidence that says yes (multiple people have asked it across both old and new forums).

Is it a big deal that the Talent is intended to be "Test vs TMD, get +2 Damage for each success for Rank rounds"? No, not at all! (I think it's unfortunate, given the flavorful name, but definitely not a big deal)

Is it a horrible black mark against the system? Nope, every system has rough spots!

For me, the question ultimately comes down to "since it keeps getting asked, and we now have an official FAQ/Clarification/Eratta, is there value in putting the information there?" I think so, but that's my perspective. :)

I'm not implying you disagree or anything. I just thought your sentence was a nice alternate wrap-up sentence.

Purplefixer
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Re: Collective Issues with the Earthdawn 4e Game System/Engine

Post by Purplefixer » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:24 am

I figured Spot Armor Flaw was the vs armor equivalent of Disarm.
No one suggests disarm can be used against lobsters.

Now all my human adept needs to do is get a friend to distract the Steelman and I can tag him with spot armor flaw before jumping in with my great leap to crushing blow, down strike, surprise strike with my claw-shape...

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The Undying
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Re: Collective Issues with the Earthdawn 4e Game System/Engine

Post by The Undying » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:09 am

I'm not entirely sure what your post was getting at, but obligatory lobster goodness:

https://youtu.be/fjtVsYqAR3s

LOB-STER STICKS TO MAG-NET (yah yah yah)

ChrisDDickey
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Re: Collective Issues with the Earthdawn 4e Game System/Engine

Post by ChrisDDickey » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:59 pm

The Undying wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:46 am
2) Does the armor have to be visible? I.e., if the Adept attempting to use Spot Armor Flaw cannot see the armor, can the talent be used against that creature?
3) Does the talent work against non-equipped armor? Most specifically, natural armor?
4) If something has stacked armor, can Spot Armor Flaw be used against the creature multiple times (once per armor)?
I figured it would be fun to reply to the different questions on their merits rather than via appeal to authority.

Spot Armor Flaw is a magical Talent. Wearing a simple robe is not enough to hide your armor flaws from the magic of this talent.

As has been pointed out, armor does not have to be manufactured in order to have flaws. It will spot flaws in natural armor.

Spot Armor Flaw can be used as often as you want, but you only get the bonus from your best current success. This dynamic does not change for stacked armor. Example: The first use of Spot Armor flaw determines that the skin is not as tough at the back of the Obsidiman targets knees. The talent can only be used once per round, regardless of the number of opponents faced or how much armor they wear. The next round a test upon the same Obsidiman shows that the Living Crystal Armor does not cover the Obsidiman targets head. These are both flaws in the targets armor. One in his natural armor, and one in his worn armor. However since you can't strike a blow that takes advantage of the weakness of the worn armor on the head, and the natural armor on the knees, only one of these armor flaws can actually be used per strike. A high enough result on a SAF test might show some overlapping flaws, but this would be the result of one really excellent test, not two mediocre tests. Only the highest current test counts at all.

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The Undying
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Re: Collective Issues with the Earthdawn 4e Game System/Engine

Post by The Undying » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:44 pm

Really, all of this is moot. The questions don't matter anymore as we have our official answers: presence of armor has no impact on use of this Talent, so by extension, visibility of armor has no impact.

I will note, though, that "this is magical" is not really a justification to suggest a constraint doesn't exist in ED (example, "this is magic, so visibility of armor doesn't matter"). ALL Talents in ED are magical, and ALL spells in ED are magical, and yet they all have constraints (some bigger than another's). If something targets "a thing you can see," then inability to see it (inside a house, behind a while, cover by a tablecloth) means you cannot target it, even though magic is involved. Again, I'm not debating whether Spot Armor Flaw requires site of armor, we know 100% now that it does not, BUT if something says/implies "you must see it," then yes, you have to see it.

Telarus
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Re: Collective Issues with the Earthdawn 4e Game System/Engine

Post by Telarus » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:28 pm

A person's current clothing (and other "worn" objects) are incorporated into their Pattern on the astral. The talent targets the Pattern (Mystic Defense), and shows the adept the best way to deliver damage to the target. Yes, even if it's Named Threaded Armor. *Shrug* That's how the mechanic works, and with ED it's best to try to see the fiction and mechanics as reinforcing each other.

Slimcreeper
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Re: Collective Issues with the Earthdawn 4e Game System/Engine

Post by Slimcreeper » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:54 pm

This is easily solved if you just rename the talent Spot Personal Failing in your own mind.

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The Undying
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Re: Collective Issues with the Earthdawn 4e Game System/Engine

Post by The Undying » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:22 am

Telarus wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:28 pm
A person's current clothing (and other "worn" objects) are incorporated into their Pattern on the astral. The talent targets the Pattern (Mystic Defense), and shows the adept the best way to deliver damage to the target. Yes, even if it's Named Threaded Armor. *Shrug* That's how the mechanic works, and with ED it's best to try to see the fiction and mechanics as reinforcing each other.
Personally, I'm not trying to reverse engineer the clarification. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny for me. But I'm also not debating it's value - it is what it is. I'd rather just consider it oddly named than try to twist the metaphysics for justification.

There is a weird interaction between worn/wielded/carried things and the creature's Pattern, though, that is true. Targeting said things are creature's MD or it's own, whichever is higher.

"Worn" things being incorporated into the pattern doesn't really hold water to me, though. Both Heat Armor and Slow Weapon target the item, not the wielder. When either is dropped, the effect continues. This requires the thing to be distinct despite being wielded (worn). One would also assume that they would need to be visible for targeting purposes ("I assume you have a hidden weapon on you, so I shall cast Slow Weapon on it" doesn't make sense to be). This would mean that worn gear is sufficient to conceal a thing from targeting.

However, I'm approach all of this in a "what seems reasonable" vector. Ignore that "Slow Weapon" has a description and I tell you there is a spell called "Slow Weapon." What would you assume? If I am going to slow a weapon, I assume I can see the weapon. Furthermore, I assume I am slowing the weapon, not the wielder's arm.

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