Mataxes wrote: ↑
yes, i know. the spell in question by default targets one weapon, and additional threads give +rank. thus, a versatile human (who cannot create additional threads) will only be able to manage it for a single weapon Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:16 am
Pretty good analysis, actually, but one point:A character who knows another magician's thread weaving through Versatility can't take advantage of extra threads at all. They are not a member of the Discipline, and so do not get that bonus.Sharkforce wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:37 am(and a versatile human will only be able to manage it for a single weapon).
(but hey, as far as it goes, that isn't all that bad... at least the spell does something for the versatile human. some spells have an effect based entirely on your circle, which i interpret to mean that the spell does absolutely nothing whatsoever for anyone gaining access without being the proper discipline
)Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:07 am
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A character who knows another magician's thread weaving through Versatility can't take advantage of extra threads at all. They are not a member of the Discipline, and so do not get that bonus.Sharkforce wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:37 am(and a versatile human will only be able to manage it for a single weapon).
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:16 am
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i'm not going to bother going further into that, because i believe i have already demonstrated adequately that unlimited threads causes problems. there is a good reason to have some limit (in this case, 4 being the maximum once you've reached the highest circles of the discipline; whether or not you could have a higher maximum without straining things too much is much more hazy).
so that's why there is a limit in general. as to why there is a limit based on circle, i believe that serves at least 3 valuable purposes:
first of all, it gives a sense of progression. your warden tier elementalist can do things with air armour that your novice elementalist simply could not have hoped to accomplish. with non-magicians, this is generally accomplished by having high-tier talents interact with their lower circle talents to improve them. that happens a lot less with magicians, so this mechanism is there to help instead.
secondly, so much of a magician's power is tied into their spells that there would be a heck of a lot less noticeable of a difference between a 10th circle magician and a 1st circle magician with high talent ranks if they had the same cap on threads, in spite of one of those investing a truly absurd amount more legend points into being a magician than the other. you'd be able to dip 1 circle of wizard (and then just increase the rank of your wizard first circle talents) on a high circle warrior and be, say, 50% as good at being a wizard as if you had spent your legend points more or less evenly into both disciplines, which would eventually mean that if you're *not* dipping into some magician discipline you're almost falling behind.
thirdly, it helps keep the uniqueness of a discipline within the discipline. it isn't the only tool for doing that, mind you, but it helps distinguish the magician who is a master of elementalism and a novice in nethermancy from the magician who is truly a master of both. someone who is truly dedicated to nethermancy will be able to power up a few quivers of arrows with night's edge as well as the blades of several warriors, while a dabbler may only be able to manage a few warriors and a handful of arrows (and a versatile human will only be able to manage it for a single weapon).
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:37 am
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Wicket Warwick wrote: ↑
What is your opinion? Haven’t thought it through enough to start a house rule, but I think it would make sense, if there are many successes in performing “Thread weaving”, it should be rewarded, shouldn’t it?
It's primarily a balancing/complexity factor.Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:52 am
Can someone explain to me the limit of additional threads. Why is there a limit of additional threads depending on the adepts circle. In my opinion there is no difference to a bonus like adding +2 to damage by throwing an extra success in melee weapons. What is your opinion? Haven’t thought it through enough to start a house rule, but I think it would make sense, if there are many successes in performing “Thread weaving”, it should be rewarded, shouldn’t it?
The equivalent to the extra success damage from melee (and similar) attacks is the extra successes from the Spellcasting test (as mentioned). This is fixed for each spell -- some do extra damage, have their effect last longer, or have other bonuses.
The "extra threads" mechanic reflects the magician's ability to manipulate the magical energy ahead of time, to alter the spell pattern to produce increased effects, which they can choose (extra damage, range, multiple targets, etc.). Their experience tier (Novice, etc.) reflects how much of this they can do. But you need to decide ahead of time, because shaping magical energy into spell patterns is a deliberate act of will.
On top of that, allowing additional random enhancement from both Thread Weaving and Spellcasting offers a bit of "double dipping" that isn't present in physical combat to the same degree -- that usually requires multiple additional talents to pull off. It also slows down play a bit -- the magician needs to decide (from a list of several options) how to spend these extra successes.
I don't think it's necessarily broken to allow it as a house rule, but... it's a power boost to magicians (and one of the constant struggles is how to balance magicians against non-spell types), and I would be a little concerned how that would interact with higher-circle abilities and effects that are designed with the assumption characters only have "X" extra boosts they can bring to bear.
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:41 pm
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Wicket Warwick wrote: ↑
Spells can also get bonuses if you roll extra successes on your SPELLCASTING test. But, although the bonuses might look the same on paper when you just add them up, the source of bonuses gained through additional threads changes how it works.Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:52 am
Can someone explain to me the limit of additional threads. Why is there a limit of additional threads depending on the adepts circle. In my opinion there is no difference to a bonus like adding +2 to damage by throwing an extra success in melee weapons. First, lets forget 'extra' threads and just look at the reason why there IS threads at all on some spells. Basically, its because the pattern of the spell is too 'big/complicated' to 'fit' in your Matrix. You thus need to 'finish drawing' the spell's pattern before casting it.
Now, lets see how a spell with threads usually work. You need to spend at least a round to weave the thread(s) and then you MUST do your spellcasting during the next round or you loose all threads you have woven so far (yes, there are talents to make the threads last longer but that's not the point here). This therefore means that threads have very limited 'shelf life' and that its reasonable to assume the spell's pattern will start destabilizing if you try to 'hold it' for longer than its supposed to.
I would therefore assume that, as he gains experiences, a caster would learn 'tricks' to stabilize his spells for a longer time. Thus a Novice could only add one additional thread before seeing his spell's pattern crumble while a Journeyman could manage to hold it for a second thread etc.
Statistics:Posted by Bonhumm — Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:06 pm
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Still not 100 percent convinced
Actually I cannot tell, why and i‘m afraid of destroying the balancing of the fourth. I just think for magic discipline players it would be more attractive if lucky dices have an effect.
Cheers
Statistics:Posted by Wicket Warwick — Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:42 pm
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In combat you normaly don't have the time to do so, but outside of combat, who is going to stop you?
In 1 minute (~10 rounds) you could weave 10+ additional threads and a simple Fireball spell would be able to reduce a whole town to ashes.
Statistics:Posted by Belenus — Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:45 am
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What is your opinion? Haven’t thought it through enough to start a house rule, but I think it would make sense, if there are many successes in performing “Thread weaving”, it should be rewarded, shouldn’t it?
Statistics:Posted by Wicket Warwick — Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:52 am
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The main advantage I can find to using a thread for improved damage over simply casting the spell twice is Armor. If your target is shrugging off the base Damage Step due to high Armor, then adding Damage Steps to a single attack is more valuable then just being futile twice.
Secondly, as far as action economy and Thread Weaving: The intent is clear, Thread Weaving is meant to be slow. The only speedup I've seen other then really high Thread Weaving rolls is the Spliced Weave talent from the upcoming Companion, and that's a Discipline Talent for 15th Circle Wizards.
Statistics:Posted by ottdmk — Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:42 pm
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I think letting an extra success on a Threadweaving test should give the option change the test to a move action from a standard action could be a solution.
That could work.. now to sell it to the GM!Statistics:Posted by badlore — Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:24 pm
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Mages are not as dangerous in a fight as the fighters by design. Once you can put that extra thread in an Enhanced Matrix, I think it's less problematic. That said, it bugs enough people that houseruling something is certainly an option. I think letting an extra success on a Threadweaving test should give the option change the test to a move action from a standard action could be a solution.
Statistics:Posted by Slimcreeper — Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:27 pm
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I'm really looking forward to the Companion - is that where the knacks you mentioned are going to be published do you know?
I'm a big fan of the extra thread mechanic in terms of adding versatility and in some circumstances I'd say it can be worth an extra round (extra targets; duration to minutes), but it's not escaped my attention that while I'm spending time weaving threads the warrior and thief in our group are burning karma and dishing out damage like there's no tomorrow. The main issue here is that by about round 5 they're running on empty and calamrin and I are looking at each other as casters with our Karma in double figures - we seem to operate at a different pace altogether but maybe the advent of Willforce at Circle 6 will mitigate that - I'm only circle 5.
Quick anecdote - I cast a spell last meeting (Binding Threads) and tried to get 3 threads off in one round (about a 50/50 chance), failed, and so just had to spend an extra round casting it - but it worked and caused a Queen Invae to be bound up looking for 14 on a Strength test to get out - which took her a couple of rounds but it did help getting that target up to 14.
Statistics:Posted by badlore — Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:45 pm
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badlore wrote: ↑
There are a couple of possibilities.Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:05 pm
That being said though, why is it that if you're trying to cast a 2 thread mind dagger (standard matrix), but you only manage to weave one of the extra threads in round 1, you cannot change your intention in round 2 and cast that as a one thread mind dagger? I understand that from the game mechanics point of view this would lead to casters always trying to weave the max number of threads...1. Extra Threads are really designed for keeping low Circle Spells viable at higher Tiers. By limiting Extra Threads to before-declarations-only, the Developers are discouraging "roll-and-sort-it-out" and encouraging players to only attempt Extra Threads when they have a 90+% success rate.
2. There's Knacks coming down the Pike that will make this more powerful/versatile/user-friendly in a number of ways.
3. Insufficient Playtesting. I suspect the Developers underestimated the degree by which Extra Threads are great in concept but difficult in execution. They don't add much to the Spellcasters' already limited Action-Economy because they don't increase Effect as much as just Casting the Spell twice does. As a result, Chain Casting your Buff Spells with Extra Threads is great, but Combat Casting 0-Thread Spells with Extra Threads is terrible.
I don't think cake has anything to do with it.
Statistics:Posted by etherial — Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:04 pm
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I think I get it
- woven threads must have their purpose declared at the point of weaving, whether attuning an enhanced matrix or at the point of casting (weaving to cast).
- you can add threads onto an existing spell pattern, either base threads to complete it, or extra threads to enhance it (or both), within the limitations of your circle.
That being said though, why is it that if you're trying to cast a 2 thread mind dagger (standard matrix), but you only manage to weave one of the extra threads in round 1, you cannot change your intention in round 2 and cast that as a one thread mind dagger? I understand that from the game mechanics point of view this would lead to casters always trying to weave the max number of threads, but in the Earthdawn world is there a difference between that spells pattern at that point and the pattern it would have if you'd declared it as a 1 thread mind dagger? And if so can this difference be perceived by someone astrally examining the matrix at that point i.e. can you see if the spell is in a form ready to cast or requires more additional threads because of the casters declaration? I'm not trying to find problems where there are none - just curious as to how the magic framework works.
Are two additional threads just one on top of the other (how enhanced matrix casting seems to portray them), or are they mixed together like the ingredients of a cake (how standard matrix casting seems to portray them). Sorry for the baking analogy.
Statistics:Posted by badlore — Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:05 pm
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