Statistics:Posted by Belenus — Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:49 pm
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1b) The only clear example of purposefully creating a pattern item that I can think of is the tale of how Garlthik lost his Eye. See The Longing Ring and sequels for details, but a Theran magician ripped out Garlthik's Eye and implanted it into his own palm as a "always on" pattern item to use against the wily Thief.
Think of it that way. If I manage to cut somebody's hand off, that item retains a link to their Pattern. It is not a bright magical "living" pattern on it's own, but it is distinct (when viewing it in astral space) from the very muted neutral tones that the background objects, etc have.
Sometimes, physical items that have a very close, intimate, direct, or overtly magical connection to a Named pattern start to collect mana, and the metaphysical connection means the mana in the item is in "resonance" or whatever with the mana in the Named pattern (person, dragon, castle, airship, etc).
The only final say is the GM's call, based on how it will affect the setting/story-in-motion. And you don't normally go around cutting your ear off and handing it to the Wizard (highest TW in the group, eh?) so he can buff you from across town....
Statistics:Posted by Telarus — Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:13 pm
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And if you make a replica that IS perfect, magic was probably involved and might fool astral sight anyway.
Statistics:Posted by Tattered Rags — Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:34 pm
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Questions:
1- Although the minor(s) pattern items are described as being created 'spontaneously (i.e. by accident), the major(s) and core item are stated to be almost always 'deliberately created'.
So, I'm wondering what this means exactly. My 2 theories are:
a: Although the item itself (say a spell book) was 'deliberately created' AND that the creator would be right into believing that it would almost certainly become a pattern item, he cannot be sure of it (i.e. you cannot be 100% sure of what you are creating WILL be a pattern item). The adept can find out AFTER the creation whether said item turned out to be a pattern item or not but cannot 'with certainty' create one.
b: There is an way to purposely create a major/core pattern item (is there a mechanic somewhere that describes how to do this?) This would imply that I can choose what my core pattern item is to 'pre-empt' the creation of a core pattern item later on.
2- Without actually checking for it (astral sight etc), would an Adept know for sure if an item is one of his pattern item (whether minor, major or core). I don't mean 'knowing due to a guess, no matter how likely it is' but I mean knowing for sure (i.e. some kind of 'spidersense').
3- Finally, would an Adept 'know' that he is missing a pattern item? For example, if one's core pattern item is a ring and I replace it by another one looking exactly like it, would the Adept 'instinctively' know that its not the same ring (i.e. without astral-sighting it or the like)?
Thank you.
Statistics:Posted by Bonhumm — Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:18 pm
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It's a chunk of context that changes the way I see the whole section!
(And kills a lot of worries I had about upper level play.)
Statistics:Posted by Purplefixer — Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:51 am
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Purplefixer wrote: ↑
It can provide bonuses up to five different traits (not just one), each up to Rank 5.Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:04 am
A group pattern can only increase one trait at a time for a fair expense, up to five. Assuming you have one of the Warrior's Major or Core pattern items. (Major can raise 3 traits up to Rank 9, Core can raise 5 traits up to Rank 15.)An ally could expand many more traits much higher by using pattern magic to boost the defensive powers of their party's warrior, for instance.
In addition to thread items, balance is generally assumed that characters will have access to (and use) group pattern threads, and those aren't likely to show up until Journeyman tier because of the Legend cost. Using thread magic on people and places (outside of a group pattern situation) is not assumed to be common.I've yet to play enough 4e to see if the creatures you tangle with beyond 3rd Circle require that kind of boost in power, or if its completely unbalancing. It comes down to the question of whether the game is balanced around the idea of pattern magic being used in every group for every character, or if it's only meant for narrative purposes, which wasn't the impression I got!
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:25 am
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Group Patterns aren't used to enhance another's powers, they're used to enhance one's own "when working for the group". I suppose they COULD be used enhance another group member's, but it's isn't the most logic use given that that other group member can do their own improvement (with the same restriction of only active "when working for the group"). Regular Pattern items allow one to enhance another's powers, regardless of whether that other's actions are related to the group or not.
Group Patterns for NPCs do come into play in some games, but they must be used with care by the GM because of the amount of power they bestow (especially from a Defensive perspective). I don't want to get into more on how they could/should impact play from an NPC angle because of the forum we are in (Player, not GM).
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:10 am
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Defining the use as narrative and purpose based ("The companions poured their magic into Gorn as he stood in the narrow gap before the tide of ghouls, and it was as if each one stood beside him in battle...") as opposed to general use means it's off the table for every-day play and the game system isn't balanced around those boosts and bonuses.
Statistics:Posted by Purplefixer — Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:04 am
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Purplefixer wrote: ↑
So is this opinion, or a clarification on how the game is meant to be run? A section like this would have cleared up a great many questions while reading the Workings of Magic chapter of the book! The Fourth Edition would have been the perfect place to make changes like this.
Mostly opinion (though I'm not sure what purpose it would serve otherwise)? I think people get a bit too hung up on pattern items. They're cool and all, but given what I've always seen as their narrative purpose within the context of the game (that is, filling the role of mystic links and sympathetic magic)... */shrug*Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:47 am
So is this opinion, or a clarification on how the game is meant to be run? A section like this would have cleared up a great many questions while reading the Workings of Magic chapter of the book! The Fourth Edition would have been the perfect place to make changes like this.
I can't really recall ever conceptually struggling with pattern items, or having a problem understanding them.
How so? If you have a pattern item, there are two things you can do with it. (a) Boost your own abilities, or (b) boost theirs. If it's an enemy, I don't see the point in doing the latter, but it might be useful with an ally. That aspect might not serve as much of a narrative hook, and personally strikes me as a bit hollow, but whatever. (I see that kind of thing better filled, narratively, with group patterns.)This seems to contradict the section on weaving threads into someone else's true pattern with their pattern items on hand,
Here's the thing about "creating" major (or core) pattern items. I don't think the intentional objective is to create the pattern item (though I can see how it might be taken that way). I think, rather, the pattern item results from a deliberate act with (usually mystical) significance. The soldier swears an oath on his blade to hold the line. The craftsman stays up late for several nights in a row to finish making the birthday gift for his love. The crown jewels are deliberately made for a purpose. (The item might not become a pattern item for the maker, but rather the recipient.)and the section on 'intentionally creating major pattern items'.
This is why a magician's grimoire is likely to become a pattern item -- it is deliberately created by the magician, and that creation is significant.
Because magic is weird?It's also still not super clear how a pattern item can be a tree, and be in someone's possession.
Is there a strong symbolic representation of 'possession' that could apply? Perhaps the person looking to take advantage of the tree as a pattern item might construct a home nearby and incorporate the tree into a tended grove or garden that is part of that defined space?
Another possibility is that a pattern item that is a tree (or a similar, large, not easily moved object) can only provide its benefit when you are touching it. This might make them less useful when it comes to the kinds of bonuses your typical adventurer is interested in... but that doesn't mean the more esoteric (and not really covered by the game rules) ritual uses of pattern magic can't be applied.
I can put it on the list, I guess? Maybe something in the planned "Magical Emporium" book that should follow Questors (if there's room).Are we going to see a FAQ with this, or an Errata, or maybe even a revised edition?
I'm happy to talk about it and do what I can to answer questions, but I think people get a little too hung up on it, and maybe miss the forest for the trees.
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:20 pm
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Mataxes wrote: ↑
There are, in my opinion, basically two main times to be interested in thread magic (outside of traditional thread items).
Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:51 pm
There are, in my opinion, basically two main times to be interested in thread magic (outside of traditional thread items).
So is this opinion, or a clarification on how the game is meant to be run? A section like this would have cleared up a great many questions while reading the Workings of Magic chapter of the book! The Fourth Edition would have been the perfect place to make changes like this.
This seems to contradict the section on weaving threads into someone else's true pattern with their pattern items on hand, and the section on 'intentionally creating major pattern items'. It's also still not super clear how a pattern item can be a tree, and be in someone's possession.
Are we going to see a FAQ with this, or an Errata, or maybe even a revised edition?
Statistics:Posted by Purplefixer — Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:47 am
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The comment about the major item can be thrown away for the purpose of this thread. It just goes to the book comment about how "major items are almost always made." Teasing that topic further here would detract from the actual content - which would be a shame now if we finally pulled it off.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:38 pm
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The Undying wrote: ↑
Not really.Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:24 pm
By the way, I'm crossing my fingers here and hoping I'm not wrong.There are, in my opinion, basically two main times to be interested in thread magic (outside of traditional thread items).
(1) You're looking for a focused boost of power against a particular target, usually to give yourself a better chance of defeating them. For example, you're looking to kill the high-Circle leader of a dark cult, and you aren't nearly as high a Circle. If you manage to obtain one of his pattern items and learn its associated Key Knowledge, you can give yourself increased offense (by boosting your talent steps when interacting with him -- Spellcasting, Melee Weapons, etc), or improved defense (Defense Ratings, Durability, etc) to give yourself a better chance of success.
(2) To enhance your "lair" in some way. Our aforementioned cult leader have a Named temple he's using as a base of operations, and has obtained one of its pattern items. When in that Named space, he can make himself tougher or more powerful (the same way you might against an individual person using one of their pattern items), but this benefit applies to anything he is doing within that space. (Any dragon worth its scales will likely have a pattern item or two for its lair, making them even more formidable while in there -- this would be on top of their already impressive magical abilities.)
Two things to remember. (a) A True Pattern is not required to have any pattern items at all. (b) The only "benefit" from having your own pattern item is knowing somebody else doesn't have it to use against you.
Third thing to remember: Outside of very specific circumstances, it is difficult to force a pattern item to be made. (The big one is basically Group True Patterns, which are their own special thing.) The example of a magician's grimoire becoming one of their pattern items is something a lot of people take as a given, when that's not really the case. It might, certainly, but it isn't guaranteed.(although you could probably make a Major one for this purpose, if you haven't made one before)
The thing is, pattern items and thread magic (outside of traditional thread items, and maybe group patterns -- which, again, their own thing) are something that more-or-less must exist based on the way magic works in Earthdawn, but you don't have to deal with them at all if you don't want to. They work best as a story hook, maguffin, or objective in a greater story. Powerful people likely have them, want to control them (for good or ill), and if one associated with a notable True Pattern turns up, many powerful people are likely to be very interested in them.
(There are extreme workings of magic that use pattern items -- Varulus III's assassination was the enabled because the Denairastas had one of his pattern items, for example. And -- as alluded earlier -- if somebody had one or more of Barsaive's pattern items, that might given them some significant degree of power or control over the province.)
Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:51 pm
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Thank you
Statistics:Posted by Jaracove — Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:17 pm
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Many/most "True Patterns" you're going to come across have a physical analog. So, 99+% of the time, you aren't trying to, say, protect the True Pattern Jaracove, you're trying to protect the physical entity Jaracove. If I wanna protect Jaracove, I can:
- Do entirely mundane things. Hide you somewhere. Ask around (a kind of research) to find someone who could hide you. Hunt down (a kind of research) the person that swore to hurt/kill you. All these thing serve to protect the True Pattern Jaracove, but they do nothing to the True Pattern, just the physical form.
- Do magical things. Cast Air Armor so you're less likely to get hurt. Observe you (a kind of research) to find out ways I could train you to become an Adept (assuming you weren't one). Swear a Blood Oath (ultimately, this can be considered magical) to preotect you, which could provide a very minor bump to my action tests when done to protect you. These again (except MAYBE the latter), serve to protect the True Pattern Jaracove but only because they protect the physical Jaracove, they do nothing to the True Pattern.
- use a Pattern Item. With a Pattern Item, I could weave thread(s) to increase your Durability, increase your Physical Defense, etc, etc. but I need that Pattern Item. First we need one (although you could probably make a Major one for this purpose, if you haven't made one before). NOW we get into the Thread magic, Key/Test/Researh Knowledge stuff, and so forth. This is actually affecting the True Pattern Jaracove, but it needs a conduit (the Pattern Item).
By the way, I'm crossing my fingers here and hoping I'm not wrong.
Mataxes has been pretty generous and trying to help you in this, hopefully he'll come along and either smooth out my rough spots or clean up an egregious mess I may have made. Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:24 pm
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