More just to keep this thread up to date for anyone who comes along and reads it.
Fireblood, Page 146
Clarification: Fireblood costs a Recovery test, but is not a Recovery test. It does not benefit from any effects that improve Recovery tests (e.g. booster potions or the Heat Food spell) and Discipline abilities that allow Karma to be spent on a Recovery test.
Elemental Spear, Page 281
Clarification: Water spear costs a Recovery test and is a Recovery test. However, it does not benefit from any effects that improve Recovery tests (e.g. booster potions or the Heat Food spell), but Discipline abilities that allow Karma to be spent on a Recovery test can be used.
From how its written in the errata, it gives the impression that heat food lasts until next recovery test and not just within the spells duration of keeping the food hot. ( we play 24 hours just as its sensible )Grove Renewal, Page 282
Clarification: Grove Renewal costs a Recovery test, but is not a Recovery test. It does not benefit from any effects that improve Recovery tests (e.g. booster potions or the Heat Food spell) and Discipline abilities that allow Karma to be spent on a Recovery test.
Statistics:Posted by Calamrin — Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:31 pm
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Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:24 am
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But, we've digressed regardless. For me, Fireblood is no RT, so never shall it benefit from "bonus to RT" system elements. You do you.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:09 am
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Philosophy aside, from a tactical perspective there is little reason to save on strain. Firstly any strain you save will be of little use in your current fight, it's being saved for the next, but there is usually little way of knowing when and how that fight will materialize. Even the GM doesn't know most of the time, because players frequently make unexpected decisions. What's more, each battle will itself be unpredictable due to the vagaries of chance, so you can't know how long any given engagement will last nor how much damage you will take during it. It is simply not possible to draw up a strain budget when you know neither what you're budgeting for, nor what you're budgeting with.
Even if you do draw up such a budget, there is no guarantee it will save you any health. For the more you allow your opponent to fight unhindered, the greater the chances that you will suffer a wounding blow, leaving you more injured than if you'd defeated him quickly. Therefore the only circumstances in which it makes sense to not use your Talents, is when you believe that their benefits will not affect on the outcome. There is little point to calling on more power when victory is already certain. Otherwise though, you fight with all your might.
Because of these tactical realities, having more recovery available does not actually increase Adept power, but rather increases Adept endurance. The more health at their disposal, the longer they can sustain high intensity combat, keeping in mind here most combat will be hight intensity for the reasons outlined above. This means longer battles or more of them. It's simply not practicable to trade endurance against effectiveness, because saving on strain comes at a cost of greater damage and wounds, which also diminish your endurance. If your strain savings don't come at such a cost, then you were above maximal combat effectiveness, and the additional power they gave you was being wasted. Diminishing waste is not a trade-off, it's pure benefit.
This is also why a GM attempting to get the players to husband their resources by having NPCs be ultra-aggressive would actually produce the opposite effect. The more aggressive and dangerous the opponent, the more critical it is to take them out quickly, and that means going all in on the strain. If you want to get your players to fight with caution and restraint, you must go in the opposite direction, and have their enemies be defensive and unwilling to commit to battle. If an engagement turns into a series of hit and run raids and indecisive skirmishes, slowly wearing down on the Adept's endurance, then she would be well advised to conserve her strength until she can force decisive battle. Once the enemy has been corned though, she should go at them with full power.
Finally, your logic is exactly the same i used to justify Fireblood being usable immediately after a fight ends. Once the last opponent falls or flees, the blood will still be up for several moments, providing a window during which it can still fuel the Fireblood, healing and calming down the user. It feels like a really appropriate and thematic way for a Warrior to come down from the combat high. The thing about it is though, if it doesn't stack with potions then there is no point in using it that way. Stormbreaker for example has Step 6 Toughness and Fireblood 6, for a total of Step 12 recovery. Meanwhile the Wizard has Physician 4, which with the +8 from the potion, ads up to Step 18 recovery. Given that letting the Wizard bandage her up is superior, why would she bother with Fireblood?
Statistics:Posted by Lys — Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:23 am
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To each their own. For me, damage (including Strain) should mean something. Characters should have to weigh the pros and cons about whether its worth it to spend that Strain for that extra Talent. It adds drama. Giving them more healing then they're entitled to reduces that drama, and allows them to throw around more weight than they should be able to (causing the GM more headaches for balancing encounters). Will you do something like double the bonus of a Booster Potion when they hit higher Circles where Talents start costing two Strain? If not, then why give them an unintended bonus now when they cost one?
IIRC, though, you've often weighed in that you like the feeling of epic encounters. I definitely agree that it's harder to have epic encounter when the neat-o abilities cost Strain you don't necessarily have to throw around. I imagine, though, you REALLY have to play your NPC opponents ultra-aggressive, almost like they assume they're going to die, otherwise the PCs are likely to throw around more Strain-powered Talents because they have that unintended boost to their healing.
Anyways, separate thought, I really like the idea of allowing Fireblood use in the one or two minutes after combat. It makes a lot of sense. Very few people instantly calm down after a fight - the adrenaline takes a bit to wear off. That seems much more realistic a 'out-of-combat' use than mock-combat with companions.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:36 am
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Also with respect to Fireblood, in my game our Warrior and my human Swordmaster mostly use it for end of combat healing. Like when the last opponent falls or flees, the immediate next action is to take a booster/healing potion and activate Fireblood. The talent says that the user must be near combat, and we determined that temporal proximity is just as good as spacial proximity. We also let potion bonuses stack with it, because otherwise the frontline combatants are always be injured on account of the ludicrous amounts of strain they take.
Statistics:Posted by Lys — Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:07 am
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Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:05 pm
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Gressiar wrote: ↑
Is it, though? If I have no damage, am I forced to make a recovery test upon waking?Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:17 pm
It is true that everyone makes a recovery test in the morning, but I have a feeling that the developers were thinking of Air Mattress as the bonus on morning recovery tests. I also believe the recovery test was intended to be made within the duration of Heat Food. Otherwise, Fireblood could get a +4 (or more) and I'm not sure if that was the developers' intentions.Statistics:Posted by etherial — Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:03 pm
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The Undying wrote: ↑
Exactly.Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:17 am
[*]Fireblood is not an RT. I left this one for last because it's the least interesting and most rules-lawyer-y [despite the case being incredibly clear cut]. Use of the Physician skill improves a subsequent RT. Booster Potions improves a subsequent RT. Heat Food improves a subsequent RT. Fireblood is not, nor has it ever (I believe), been an RT, it just uses RP. IF Earthdawn had named the Recovery stuff better, I doubt this question would even be raised.[/list]No one ever asks if Wood Skin or Earth Skin can benefit from Recovery boosters. Fireblood is just another Talent that costs a RT, the effect just happens to be healing.
Statistics:Posted by Dougansf — Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:09 pm
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To avoid confusion, I'm again going to use my terminology from that post. A Recovery Point (RP) is the resource pool ("Recovery Test" in system parlance), whereas a Recovery Test (RT) is the Toughness-only test used to recover damage or heal a wound when no damage is present ("Recovery test" in system parlance).
An RT is an RT. Just because something allows you to bypass the standard restrictions on when an RT can be made doesn't make it's less of an RT. So, since the spells Elemental Spear - Water and Vital Springs both say the "targets may make an RT," that RT should receive all normal benefits that an RT can receive. This includes Booster Potions and Heat Food.
Keep in mind, though, that receiving these bonuses requires planning and resource that most parties likely won't do or have. You can't eat Heat Food in response to the spell, and you can't drink a Booster Potion in response to the spell - you either take the RT when the spell resolves or you don't. That means, for someone to get the benefits of Booster Potion, Heat Food, etc, they had to have done it before the spell goes off. Realistically, that's like an adventuring group preemptively eating Heat(ed) Food, washed down with a Booster Potion, for breakfast because they expect a battle that day, and moreover a battle that they'll need mid-combat healing for. It's not a great plan given the size/weight of a Booster Potion - having enough around to pound them like energy drinks at every meal is likely prohibitive.
Separate, in my opinion, there's a very good reason to take Rules as Written and not allow RT-improving things to improve Fireblood. As a preface, remember that your options for mid-combat healing are Elementalist spells, Fireblood on self, or Healing Potions (if your table allows that).
- Fireblood allows mid-combat healing. Mid-combat healing is hugely beneficial in it's own right, so much so that it is scarcely available in the setting.
- Fireblood is innate. As a Talent, it is much more difficult to stifle or deny in comparison to Spellcasting (Spellcasting is much more likely to be shut down during combat, and it can easily be stifled via things like Astral Interference).
- Fireblood always succeeds. Receiving healing via Spellcasting has to overcome the target(s) Mystic Defense ... and that can fail at critical times.
- Fireblood is a Standard Action. If you're lucky enough to have an Elementalist along, they'd have to have their healing spell already in a matrix, and an Enhanced Matrix at that, to be able to heal as a Standard Action.
- Fireblood is at-will. You're not relying on someone else to notice your need for healing, and be available to heal you.
- Fireblood already has more bonuses than an RT. An RT is a Toughness-only test unless enhanced otherwise. Some Disciplines get the karma ability "Can spend Karma on RT," but not all do. Meanwhile, Fireblood is a Toughness-based Talent, which means it's default Step is higher by default and can easily reach more than double the un-enhanced Step of the RT (triple easily if you play High Circle). Plus, as a Talent, everyone can automatically spend Karma on it, no Discipline-special Karma ability required.
- Fireblood can get Knacks. Heal wounds at-will? Yes, please.
- Fireblood can benefit from Relentless Recovery. Yeah, we're looking into the Higher Circles, but it's definitely worth mentioning.
- Fireblood is not an RT. I left this one for last because it's the least interesting and most rules-lawyer-y [despite the case being incredibly clear cut]. Use of the Physician skill improves a subsequent RT. Booster Potions improves a subsequent RT. Heat Food improves a subsequent RT. Fireblood is not, nor has it ever (I believe), been an RT, it just uses RP. IF Earthdawn had named the Recovery stuff better, I doubt this question would even be raised.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:17 am
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Bit more technical reading:
In Fireblood it says spends not makes a RT.
By contrast in water elemental spear it says makes an instant RT at +2 that cannot be affected by other healing aids.
I would say cant use healing aids on fireblood, you also cant on elemental water spear....but you could spend karma on ele spear if u had the ability to use it on RT.
Statistics:Posted by Calamrin — Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:35 pm
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- I agree that the wording on Heat Food is a bit open-ended. I'd personally recommend limiting it to 24 hours just for house keeping.
- Remember that you can only benefit from one instance of a spell/talent at one time. Not that anyone has said otherwise here, just a reminder. Basically, this avoid something wonky like someone eating Heat Good for weeks before going adventuring and getting huge buffs on their first RT.
- Your first recovery test of the morning is actually taken upon waking. The timing on this is critical because you cannot (rules as written) opt to postpone it for morning RT buffs. The only way to improve the potency of that first RT is to do things before going to sleep: Heat Food for dinner, Booster Potion before bed, and a comfy Air Mattress all help.
- Fireblood is not a RT (rules as written), it just heals. Things that improve RT (including "can spend karma on RT") do not benefit Fireblood. That, however, is ruled as written - a number of people on the forum (I believe Mataxes included) have said they'd allow RT improving things to improve Fireblood. I am personally against that because it SIGNIFICANTLY increases access to effective healing mid-combat and greatly erodes one of the huge Time to Shine areas for Elementalists (who provide three of the five mid-combat healing abilities in the system).
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:32 pm
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