as far as breaking the economy with alchemy as a skill... that seems unlikely. for the sake of argument, we'll presume you have a respectable attribute (step 6) and have invested 3 points into the skill.
when making booster potions, you can set the TN to 13 and be able to make 3 potions for 25 sp, presuming you have access to an alchemy lab and not just a kit (so I mean, from my perspective you're probably looking at circle 3-4 at least to put together that kind of spare change), and presuming the entire group is working together on this as you indicated you'll have let's say +2 per assistant, 3 assistants, that's step 15 on your alchemy skill, so you'll pretty consistently hit that TN (but sometimes you'll fail and get no return at all).
you can now sell those potions. I can't find a place that lists selling price for stuff you've made, but I suspect 30% is about right (10% is starting price for stolen goods, 60-80% is the starting price for actual coins that are no longer in circulation... somewhere more towards the middle seems reasonable for stuff that is neither stolen nor literally the stuff that money is made of). that said, for the sake of argument, I suspect many GMs will just default to 50% because that's an easy number. you are now making a profit of around 25 silver per day, split between a group of 4 adepts, of circle rating 3-4 most likely.
now I don't know about *your* adepts, but my circle 4 adepts are not going to be thinking "this seems like an amazing way to make money" any time soon.
in contrast, if we make it a knack so that your characters can just pick it up, let's call it a rank 5 knack, your personal step is probably going to be 11 + karma (which means your step is *already* at the point where if the entire group helped) and the entire group helps with just a +2 bonus each (maybe the knack isn't available for their discipline), you're now at step 21, which means you can bump the TN enough to make another 2 potions comfortably... and making 75 sp per day, which is still not amazing, but it's a heck of a lot closer to adventuring pay than when you were making one third that amount (and is enough to live a rather comfortable lifestyle, and is frankly rather safe). and if the group decides to invest a little more heavily into alchemy, they can become even better assistants, increasing the profit further.
for example, with rank 3 alchemy, the bonus they give improves. if you increase your patterncraft talent (which is what is used for every other enchanting talent) with group threads, or by a thread item, or heaven forbid if you are a wizard with access to the uplifted consciousness spell, you're looking at huge pay increases. a journeyman wizard can add +8 from the spell, and +5 from a thread for example... another 13 to the step means that you can make 175 sp per day on average, with little to no risk. that's without thread items or blood oaths, or pattern items of the lab, etc.
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:22 pm
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The alchemy lab would still be needed for the knack as well.
One lab for a party of 4 and everyone able to make Booster Potions compared to 1 caster in the party with this knack?
I'm pointing out that if Panda truly believes the knack is to powerful then so is the skill - the power issue is somewhere else.
The only reasons Panda gave for it not existing is it would be to cheap Legend point wise and to cheap silver wise.
I'm saying the silver cost is a rubbish reason and that the Legend point cost is so close to being the same as to make no difference.
The only real difference is using the skill takes a ridiculous amount of time - I'll create a different post about skills rather than changing the subject here.
Rather than getting this knack Nethermancers get to make Blood Charms - they fit there kind of healing much better.
Saying healing is the sole province of the gods and there priests is not earthdawn it's D&D. Sure Garlans followers can and should heal but 3 of the 5 casters have healing and nothing to do with the Passions.
Wizards have a major theme of knowledge, with a minor theme of magical knowledge - to me that means they want to know everything and particularly everything about magic. it follows then that this knack is absolutely in keeping for a Wizard to have.
I do admit that the reason I always think Elementalist in connection with healing is nothing to do with there write up. Its because Panda has said he would recommend that someone play an elementalist for the heals if the group are completely new to Earthdawn. Also they get a heal spell at 1st Circle.
Statistics:Posted by ChainWolf — Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:34 am
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so, first off, the recipes you *can* learn are based on your rank in alchemy. with 3 ranks, the recipes you could learn (in addition to the booster potion recipe you start with) are the halt illness potion, kelia's antidote, and kelix's poultice. no salve of closure, no healing potions, no last chance salve. so, the biggest and best stuff isn't happening. to get higher than that costs a substantial amount of downtime. I don't want to get into too much detail, but to get everything in the books is rank 8.
that's pretty hard to reach for skills due to all the training times and cooldowns. it's downright easy for a talent in comparison.
then, you have to factor in that buying the recipes for those items is expensive. several thousand silver total. now, you *can* get around that, but that costs downtime as well, and more importantly making your own recipes increases the TN to make the consumables by 5... which is pretty rough for a skill that has few ways to enhance it, and almost negligible for a talent in comparison, which have a lot of ways to improve them (starting with karma, but including blood oaths, group patterns, finding pattern items for your lab, thread items, and potentially spells depending on which talent we're talking about). improving the step of an alchemy *skill* by 5 is quite difficult. improving the step of a theoretical alchemy *talent* is far easier.
all this on top of needing to buy either an alchemy kit or lab to *use* your skill makes it a substantial investment for any PC.
furthermore, because the alchemy skill is harder to improve in, there is greater risk of failure, and a lesser chance of producing extra uses (free), which decreases the probability of you taking the economy and snapping it over your knee.
simply put, the barriers that are in place make it possible, but vastly more difficult, for a PC to reach that point when you need alchemy as a skill, and furthermore the substantial investment in time to get alchemy to those heights (30 weeks of training time assuming you start with alchemy at 3, and I don't feel like adding up the cooldowns, but it's going to take literal years of game time passing) could instead be used to learn a whole lot of other skills, meaning that the person who actually tries to pull it off is paying a significant opportunity cost (you could far more cheaply learn sprint, impressive display, and resist pain all at 2-3 ranks, for example, plus pick up a language or three in speaking *and* read/write, to name a few choice skills that aren't much worse than their equivalent talents provided you weren't going for a high rating).
make it a talent knack, and learning alchemy becomes an afterthought. as it is now with it only being available as a skill, yes you can potentially get great prices on consumables *eventually*, but it's going to involve dedicating a lot of resources to it first, making it an exceptionally *expensive* way to get "cheap" healing aids.
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:40 am
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This doesn't scan. If it was true that having a knack for it would be a must have and everyone would take it then right now with current rules EVERY char at EVERY table would have Alchemy 2-3 Ranks.
Then when they have a couple days free while every one else was downtime busy they can use the time to make items.
I don't see that happening. So I feel Pandas belief is not based from logic.
To me the real problem is that creating consumables is to quick.
Currently 1 roll = 1 day, If it was 1 roll = 1 week the perceived issue wouldn't exist
or possibly healing items should be separated from other consumables if its really the problem presented (I just don't see it as one).
Statistics:Posted by ChainWolf — Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:06 am
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Nethermancers are also described as those that learn enough about living patterns (from studying their remains) that they can magically alter them & I think there is a nod to "grisly battlefield medic" in there as well.
"Consumable" doesn't have to mean "healing potion" tho. D&D "caster scrolls", wand, staves, etc are "consumables" & often have attack or utility spell effects. In my game, activating these cost 1 strain & 1 round for each thread the spell would normally have required (no bonus threads or thread weaving knacks or successes) & if you don't have Spellcasting you are rolling raw Per/Will for effect. The caster takes part of the "mana burn" & the physical object takes the rest and the Astral corruption & is destroyed by it. I see these in game more as loot/minor treasure & I am still tweaking the rules around them.
Keep in mind that Spellstore IS a 7th Circle Wizard spell, after all....
Statistics:Posted by Telarus — Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:05 pm
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wounds? not so much.
death? particularly not so much
and poison... well, that depends a lot on the poison.
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:13 am
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Or toughness
Statistics:Posted by Lursi — Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:33 am
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ChainWolf wrote: ↑
By that logic though, I still do not follow why Elementalist should get it but Nethermancer shouldn't. Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:32 am
I was not square peg round holing though! I was looking at Disciplines practices and belief and extrapolating forward. This is why I said a Nethermancer should not have access to it and was on the fence about Wizard.- Neither focuses on namegivers or interacting with them.
- Neither of them has a spell roster that particularly focuses of healing (They each get 4 spells that can be considered healijg)
- Both mainly interact with spirits
Just because Nethermancers have a dark theme, doesn't mean they cannot or should not be able to make healing aids. That's backwards logic, not forward.
Overall, I am still against such a knack for the reasons already stated. For me, it doesn't fit the Lore (Healing is the domain of Garlen - see devotions) and mechanically, easy access to healing aids is too powerful.
Now the lore reason doesn't matter if you run a custom setting and just use ED rules, but I reallly don't like people misrepresenting the poor Nethermancers who are devoting their life to saving us all
Statistics:Posted by ragbasti — Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:53 am
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In my head I was thinking Shaman has an animist belief structure (as shown by the write-up).
That belief means each animal (I include humans as animals, and find it sad I feel this has to be said), plant and rock is a person. Being a person does not require human-likness. A person gains meaning and power through interacting with other persons.
Specifically in this case it would mean the belief the spirit of a particular plant, if treated the correct way, would assist others in viewing the spirit world by other persons breathing in the smoke created by burning the spirits physical representation. in game terms that would be incense of Astral sight. It could just as easily be a cream smeared onto someones eyelids. Mechanically the only way to do this seems to be alchemy.
I am coming to realise that anything not specifically released in 4th ed is not cannon so disciplines specializations are not a thing. Therefore the assumption that an Enchanter should be able to brew an unguent is flawed both because it's a hold over from different systems and because there IS no such thing as an Enchanter specialization in the game - as a side that's probably a good thing as the actual rules for a lot of the specializations are a bit problematic/non existent in previous eds.
I was not square peg round holing though! I was looking at Disciplines practices and belief and extrapolating forward. This is why I said a Nethermancer should not have access to it and was on the fence about Wizard.
You obviously feel strongly about the knack not existing for balance reasons and fair enough. Rightly or wrongly your reasoning tells me you think healing items serve a purpose of draining silver from adventuring parties as well as keeping them alive.
There are three primary reasons I came up with the knack.
1) it seemed a glaring omission
2) because Alchemy is a skill - but explaining that should be another topic
3) this last reason is irrelevant to Earthdawn - my table is playing in the GM's home brew setting using Earthdawn rules set. We are on the cusp of reaching 6th circle and from 1st to 5th circles inclusive as a party of 5 have gotten hold of exactly 3 booster pots and 1 last chance salve. This fits the setting we are playing in (none of us players are complaining) but does cause unintended issues that the GM has acknowledged.
Statistics:Posted by ChainWolf — Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:32 am
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To start—and this is extremely important to me—Shamans are not tribal. They are not medicine men. Tribe appears nowhere in their write-up. That did appear in previous editions, but it was burned to the ground and that earth salted. For good reasons. Because it ranged from mildly to deeply offensive, depending on where you stood on the whole thing. An argument can be made 4E's take on Shaman has only being a spellcaster and the name in common with Shaman from previous editions. Awesome. Mission accomplished.
As to why aren't there knacks to give access to consumables and there never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever will be? Because it breaks the healing economy. Hell, it breaks the already tenuous seemingly adventuring-based economy. It effectively provides twice the resources to a group. As it is, it may not be worth investing in alchemy. It should be a choice. With such a knack, it's a requirement. Any group with be insane not to. It provides an incredibly powerful ability (and currently the only reason to learn the skill at all) for a pittance. Whatever the Legend Point cost, it's a pittance.
Beyond setting and mechanical reasons, none of the Discplines are a good fit for this. Arguments can be made a particular Discipline seems like a good fit for access, but they're never compelling arguments. They're arguments that start with the end and work backwards to see what square peg can be hammered best into the round hole. While brewing potions may be something we associate with classical ideas of magicians, it's never been part of what they are in Earthdawn.
This being said, you should absolutely do what you want at your table. No one can or will stop you. However, there are very good reasons why it doesn't exist and why it won't ever exist, despite a desire for it. Which was the question.
Statistics:Posted by Panda — Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:25 am
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you might be theoretically able to roll just as high with the skill, but it's a lot less likely...
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:53 am
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My reasoning for Elementalist is not just they get some heal spells. Elementalists as well as getting some of the best healing spell in game also get cold purify a talent that cures disease & poison. Only 2 other disciplines get access to this talent.
Also in previous eds one of the specializations of an Elementalist talked about is enchanter - so making a potion of giants leap, or a poison antidote seems completely within the disciplines purview.
Like wise a Shaman is the tribes medicine man, they are all about using that herb/incense to assist with a spirit quest and at the same time using an unguent to help a wound heal.
I can see an argument for allowing Wizard to learn the knack, with there knowledge themes.
As far as consumables being powerful and being used to print money goes any character can learn Alchemy and do the same thing. Not allowing this knack for that reason is not going to stop it.
Statistics:Posted by ChainWolf — Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:22 am
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immunity to poison, instantly healing wounds, healing even when you're out of recovery tests, nigh-infinite last chance uses, all of these are exceptionally powerful abilities that come from healing aids. if you were to craft a thread item that made you more difficult to poison, you might be able to pull out a bonus as large as the keelix's poultice would give you (and that's nowhere near as strong as a kelia's antidote), but you likely wouldn't be able to give a free poison resist test instantly, and you'd have to invest a heck of a lot of LP into it.
now, combine that with the rules for crafting multiple alchemical items that allow you to produce extras on a good roll, and not only does that mean you can get healing aids for an incredibly low price if you have a high enough step and can add karma etc, but it also means you essentially have a license to print money too. well... to mint coins I guess, this being a society that doesn't use paper money. but you get the point.
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:31 pm
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