http://fasagames.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... game#p2044
Statistics:Posted by etherial — Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:23 am
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well, for what it's worth, I took the time to check the errata, and that makes it a bit more clear:
"Haggle, Page 152
Clarification: Each side makes all their tests independently, they do not alternate tests."
Thanks to Sharkforce! I'm glad someone thought to look at the errata. Last couple of times I checked it wasn't in there so I just assumed the RAW in the book was all that was going to be said on the matter and didn't think to check again when it came up in my new game. Still as Belenus says it's still not particularly clear. If they hadn't changed the text from: "Haggle, Page 152
Clarification: Each side makes all their tests independently, they do not alternate tests."
3rd edition
to this:The adept may make a number of tests per transaction equal to his Haggle Rank. However, as soon as he fails a Haggle Test, his bargaining stops."
4th edition
things would be a lot less murky. I think I know what they were trying to achieve and why they didn't just swap in the 3rd edition text in the errata but I am making assumptions about the matter.The adept may make a number of tests per transaction equal to his Haggle rank. However, as soon as either side fails a Haggle test, the bargaining stops.
Regardless, my group has decided to experiment with a house rule that requires only a single role from each participant in the negotiation that allows for what seem like reasonable levels of benefit for the skilled Haggler. It could also be done with multiple roles back and forth and perhaps allowing Resist Taunt to "parry" successful Haggle roles and make the negotiation process the equivalent of a financial duel, which might be fun for some campaigns, but that isn't what I'm looking for in this game. We'll probably tweak it as we go along but so far it looks like we're going to try to figure out something that makes Haggle a worthwhile talent/skill without breaking anything and without requiring a lot of roll playing, though I am giving bonuses for good role playing.
Statistics:Posted by MetalBoar — Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:03 pm
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Belenus wrote: ↑
Because the Players Guide itself says (and isn't removed by the errata):
neither side rolls faster, and the side with the higher haggle rolls more tests (if they want to).Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:22 am
So who rolls faster, gets more tests?Sharkforce wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:14 amwell, for what it's worth, I took the time to check the errata, and that makes it a bit more clear:
"Haggle, Page 152
Clarification: Each side makes all their tests independently, they do not alternate tests."
Because the Players Guide itself says (and isn't removed by the errata):
This doesn't make any sense to me...However, as soon as either side fails a Haggle test, the bargaining stops.
their rolls are independent. if either side fails a haggle test, the bargaining for that side stops.
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:02 pm
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Sharkforce wrote: ↑
"Haggle, Page 152
Clarification: Each side makes all their tests independently, they do not alternate tests."
So who rolls faster, gets more tests?Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:14 am
well, for what it's worth, I took the time to check the errata, and that makes it a bit more clear:"Haggle, Page 152
Clarification: Each side makes all their tests independently, they do not alternate tests."
Because the Players Guide itself says (and isn't removed by the errata):
This doesn't make any sense to me...However, as soon as either side fails a Haggle test, the bargaining stops.
Statistics:Posted by Belenus — Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:22 am
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ragbasti wrote: ↑
well, for what it's worth, I took the time to check the errata, and that makes it a bit more clear:Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:09 am
That's how I understood it but didn't have my book handy to confirm.Sharkforce wrote: ↑Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:58 pmso, as I understand it, the line about haggle stopping when either person fails means that *that* person cannot keep trying. if you keep on succeeding, you can keep on racking up successes. I can certainly agree that it isn't clear, however.
That is not my interpretation. If you succeed then it's 15% of the price and so on.that said, it won't help you that much with fencing stolen goods, either. the "cost" that is increased or decreased by 5% is the amount you're selling the thing for, which in this case is 10% of the book price. so if you have 100 sp worth of stuff, which you're selling for 10 sp because you are fencing stolen goods, and you win a haggle test, that is worth an extra 5 copper, not an extra 5 silver.
"Haggle, Page 152
Clarification: Each side makes all their tests independently, they do not alternate tests."
it doesn't say anything on what you'd be haggling, but again, I would have expected it to be the price you're starting from, not the full value of the item.
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:14 am
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Sharkforce wrote: ↑
That's how I understood it but didn't have my book handy to confirm.Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:58 pm
so, as I understand it, the line about haggle stopping when either person fails means that *that* person cannot keep trying. if you keep on succeeding, you can keep on racking up successes. I can certainly agree that it isn't clear, however.That is not my interpretation. If you succeed then it's 15% of the price and so on.that said, it won't help you that much with fencing stolen goods, either. the "cost" that is increased or decreased by 5% is the amount you're selling the thing for, which in this case is 10% of the book price. so if you have 100 sp worth of stuff, which you're selling for 10 sp because you are fencing stolen goods, and you win a haggle test, that is worth an extra 5 copper, not an extra 5 silver.
Statistics:Posted by ragbasti — Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:09 am
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that said, it won't help you that much with fencing stolen goods, either. the "cost" that is increased or decreased by 5% is the amount you're selling the thing for, which in this case is 10% of the book price. so if you have 100 sp worth of stuff, which you're selling for 10 sp because you are fencing stolen goods, and you win a haggle test, that is worth an extra 5 copper, not an extra 5 silver.
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:58 pm
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the silver mug is 50
I'll give you 25
[roll]
you're taking money out the mouth of my kids, but I can accept 40
It's not worth a copper more than 25, but I like you so I'll offer 30
[roll]
I don't know how you sleep at night, 30 it is, would you like me to fill it with my family's tears before you take it with you?
I don't know what the actual mechanics would need to look like that don't involve needing calculators at the table. I've never felt the need to rewrite it or anything, it's not terrible. Maybe just accepting calculators is the answer, because then you can get to some fun things. If it had a little gambling to it, where you could risk more or less based on your skill and how lucky you felt, that might be fun. But it's probably going to be a one person minigame so it needs to be fast.
Alternately, you could make it a flat modifier. ±1% per rank to all transactions over a certain value perhaps. I do let people subtract their Haggle Rank from their monthly living expenses in silver.
Or you could make it pretty fast by picking the discount you want in 5% increments. The TN varies by Availability and Location. Each use takes an hour. If you hit the TN you get the discount, if you miss you pay full price or don't buy at all. One roll, so it plays fast. Only works on a single item or a single batch of loot. For example, you could sell a chest of jewels or all the broadswords you looted off some bandits. You can only use it for minimum starting price purchases based on the location.
Then if it's used against an individual merchant in a shopping scene use the Favor mechanics that already exist. Although the merchant doesn't by default require the Favors to be repaid. 5% discount is a small favor, 10% is a large favor. If the player fails, then the merchant can make a Haggle test against the player.
just spitballing here.
Statistics:Posted by Slimcreeper — Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:09 pm
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Statistics:Posted by ragbasti — Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:23 pm
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ragbasti wrote: ↑
This is not quite correct.Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:42 pm
That is per test, and you get Rank x tests per negotiation. Haggling is a competition, you can roll multiple times (so can the merchant) and the total successes decide your discount. See it as a little social fight that can break out every now and then
You get +5% when successful and -5% when the merchant is successful.
And the negotiation stops as soon as someone failed his test. So you get +5% at best.
Statistics:Posted by Belenus — Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:34 pm
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MetalBoar wrote: ↑
That is per test, and you get Rank x tests per negotiation. Haggling is a competition, you can roll multiple times (so can the merchant) and the total successes decide your discount. See it as a little social fight that can break out every now and thenThu Jun 18, 2020 7:55 pm
I have two primary complaints. A strict, literal reading of the RAW (4th Edition) is broken as it only gives you a +/-5% change in price, max. If you look at how much stolen goods usually sell for (10% of base price) then haggle is huge. I can easily double or triple the money you get when fencing goods. And playing it out that way is also a lot more immersive for the Thief player, imo.It feels completely underwhelming relative to almost any other required Discipline Talent, short of the Windling Scout's Climbing requirement. It's probably on par with Windling spellcasters that have to take Astral Sight. Why would Haggle develop as an integral part of the Thief discipline for such a small reward? If a Thief wants more money it's far more efficient to just get better at stealing things.
The only point where haggle gets bad is in warden tier+ where you get a number of rolls that can easily lead to 50% discounts. At that point, it is even more important to make sure that high-class merchants have the haggle skill at a reasonable level to counteract it.There's also the impact that Haggle has on play if a more effective ruleset is used. Earthdawn is a fine game and 4th Edition has given more thought to economics than previous editions but it's still far from being its strong point and I fear that it can be broken with injudicious modifications to the Haggle rules.
How often do you actually deal with goods in your game? Halle only ever comes into play in my games when we're actively trying to buy/sell stuff in a town. That's when it should be used and when it matters. Just make a social contract not to use it on every beer/accommodation/transportation and that's that.My other complaint is more a matter of playstyle. I'm concerned that if it's used for everything it slows down the game with a lot of dice rolling that doesn't particularly advance the story nor feel especially heroic.
I think you are giving the talent more of a beating than it warrants. I also ahve issues with it but that is more the character vision of my current thief rather that not liking the mechanics.
Statistics:Posted by ragbasti — Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:42 pm
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Sharkforce wrote: ↑
this is not only a solution for this one specific scenario, it solves a lot of situations where any given talent doesn't fit as well as it might for your personal vision of the discipline, which can be particularly useful for less martially-inclined disciplines in a martially-inclined campaign (because in certain campaign styles, the thief can actually fit quite well).
for example, you might feel that your thief focuses more on being able to evade pursuers when a deal inevitably goes south and choose sprint or great leap as your optional talent for that circle, and focus on that instead of your discipline talent. or, you might feel like your thief is a bit more of an assassin and considers the use of the crossbow to be essential to his version of the discipline.
it does require a little bit of planning (like making sure that there isn't a talent option where you mostly want it at a low rating chosen at the same circle as a discipline talent that you don't particularly care to improve), but it really helps make the various disciplines fit your personal vision.
I've already run the group from 1st to 3rd circle using standard advancement rules so there'd probably need to be some tinkering with all the characters to make everyone happy but it's a good idea. I'd still have to figure out how I feel about the existence of Haggle in my Barsaive but it's not as important or urgent.Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:43 am
in the west marches campaign, we have had a great deal of success with using the optional rule "using all talents to advance". when you come across a talent that does not particularly fit your personal vision of the discipline, you can basically just bypass it entirely by using an optional talent to advance with instead.this is not only a solution for this one specific scenario, it solves a lot of situations where any given talent doesn't fit as well as it might for your personal vision of the discipline, which can be particularly useful for less martially-inclined disciplines in a martially-inclined campaign (because in certain campaign styles, the thief can actually fit quite well).
for example, you might feel that your thief focuses more on being able to evade pursuers when a deal inevitably goes south and choose sprint or great leap as your optional talent for that circle, and focus on that instead of your discipline talent. or, you might feel like your thief is a bit more of an assassin and considers the use of the crossbow to be essential to his version of the discipline.
it does require a little bit of planning (like making sure that there isn't a talent option where you mostly want it at a low rating chosen at the same circle as a discipline talent that you don't particularly care to improve), but it really helps make the various disciplines fit your personal vision.
My group has been playing Earthdawn as one of our top most go to games for over 10 years now and we've never used the "all talents to advance" option, not in the games I've run nor in any of the others and I don't think anyone has even considered it. I'm not sure why not but I'll definitely give this some thought and run it by my players.
Statistics:Posted by MetalBoar — Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:14 pm
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Statistics:Posted by MetalBoar — Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:55 pm
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We don't use all talents to advance, never have and I have never had issues with, to be honest. That is until I made a Thief. I'll still roll with it and things work perfectly fine, it's just that I have a talent that I'm not too thrilled with to sink LP into.
It just doesn't fit my vision of the character and we're also a group that has very little downtime based on how my GM runs the game. It kind of feels like a waste of LP and I really try to use it whenever possible.
I play more of an adventurous Thief, who grabs valuable here and there and is mostly looking out for himself. Occasionally, I make some money by pickpocketing in the streets, since I don't want to spend my hard-earned silver on accommodation.
The group is not a means to an end for him, but he ultimately values his own independence.
As for balance, the RAW talent is fine. 5% is not much and should never break the economy.
Even if you have rank 7+ you'd require all rolls to succeed to get any meaningful discount and that ignores that the merchant can roll against you to get the 5% back
The implementation is actually quite enjoyable. You and the merchant sort of entering a contest where the accumulated successes determine the final price. And let's face it, there should be no respectable merchant out there with no rank in haggle
Statistics:Posted by ragbasti — Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:12 pm
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You get a 5% discount if successful.
You lose 5% if the merchant is successful.
Items being sold by a player don't sell for 100% of the buying price.
~30% for used armor, weapons, etc.
~50-75% for other items.
With haggle you might be able to get 5% more.
So no abuse possible.
Statistics:Posted by Belenus — Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:46 am
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