Statistics:Posted by Mataxes — Sat May 18, 2019 4:14 pm
Sharkforce wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 7:42 pmand if you can train a griffin to gladly take a rider on its back, it seems improbable that it is the result of immutable biology. so how are they suddenly developing this absolute hatred for taking a rider on their back? are the adult griffins training the young to hate it somehow? where do they get this behaviour from? if it was like a zebra (or a jungle griffin), then they wouldn't be trainable whether they are young or not
ChrisDDickey wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 5:43 amNobody is suggesting that there is immutable biology that a griffin suddenly develops an inability to serve as a mount at adulthood. Nor is anybody suggesting that adult Griffins suddenly develop an absolute hatred of the idea. That is the wrong end of the stick. We are suggesting that almost all animals (including horses) are born with an aversion to serving as a mount. Not wanting to be a mount is not a learned behavior that the other horses are teaching it. It is instinctive.
Wow you really managed to grab the wrong end of the stick with both hands this time. I mean I told you that you had a hold of the wrong end of the stick and was criticizing a position I don't even hold and ignoring the point I was making, then you really doubled down and ran with it.Sharkforce wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 8:28 amso first off, people have EXPLICITLY compared griffins to animals that are untameable because of their biology. so frankly, you are wrong: somebody IS suggesting that it is a problem. here, allow me to give you the exact text: "One example is a zebra. Seems close enough to a horse to work right? Nope - zebras cannot be domesticated simply because the do not have the character for it. Even if taken young, as they grow up their nature takes over and they become unbearably mean. A lot of wild predators, even if captured young and raised by humans retain a lot of their predatory instincts and are not considered domesticated."
now, go ahead, feel free to explain to me *why* that was brought up in this thread if *not* to compare it to a gryphon and provide an example of a creature that, because of its biology (and if this happens with all zebras then no, it isn't just a specific personality trait any more than fear of not fitting in is merely a specific human personality trait) is incapable of being mount-trained.
Again, you had argued against the position that griffins are born "glad to take a rider on its back", and that it does not make sense for them to suddenly develop an "inability to serve as a mount". I was pointing out that nobody was actually suggesting that they have such a progression of attitude. Rather the attitude starts off as "I don't want to be a mount", and unless changed, stays that way. It is harder to train older animals, and there is no reason why a griffin can't be right on the line, and the increased difficulty of training older animals changes the difficulty from "very hard" to "nearly impossible".ChrisDDickey wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 5:43 amNobody is suggesting that there is immutable biology that a griffin suddenly develops an inability to serve as a mount at adulthood. Nor is anybody suggesting that adult Griffins suddenly develop an absolute hatred of the idea. That is the wrong end of the stick. We are suggesting that almost all animals (including horses) are born with an aversion to serving as a mount. Not wanting to be a mount is not a learned behavior that the other horses are teaching it. It is instinctive. Horses trainers find it fairly easy to overcome this aversion, but even after millennia of domestication, each individual horse must be individually broken of this aversion. It took me a few seconds on google to find an article where the author mentions that some people think that a nine year old horse is to old to be rider trained, but she argues it just takes a different technique.
Have you ever heard the saying "you can't teach an old dog an new trick"? That is totally incorrect of course, but training an old dog is usually different and/or harder than training a young dog. Training a dog is considered an easy task, but some people can't manage to train an old dog new tricks, even if they can teach young dogs tricks. It's harder, even with dogs and horses.
So my point is that all Griffins are born with an extra-ordinarily strong aversion to serving as a mount for namegivers. However trainers can overcome that aversion in a young common Griffin. They can't overcome that aversion in an adult common Griffin, or a Jungle Griffin of any age. Doing so is not theoretically impossible, but it would be a legendary feat of training.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Sat May 18, 2019 4:13 pm
Statistics:Posted by Calamrin — Sat May 18, 2019 7:55 am
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Fri May 17, 2019 8:28 am
This is actually a very important point. But even here the "must capture young" rule works very well.Sharkforce wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 6:50 ami would also make the argument on the basis that it's pretty lame if the only way for a cavalryman to ever get a griffin is to buy one, with no real chance of taming it themselves, when they can tame basically every other suitable mount in existence for themselves if they can find one, but that isn't a rules-based argument; the quest to find and tame a griffin sounds much more exciting than the quest to get enough money to buy one that somebody else tamed for you.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Fri May 17, 2019 5:43 am
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Thu May 16, 2019 7:42 pm
Statistics:Posted by Avanti — Thu May 16, 2019 2:36 pm
I also freely admit that I am often operating off of extrapolation. Wiggling some little bits, hoping to make the rules fit a bit better into my head-space.Sharkforce wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 6:50 amthat said, i'm prepared to agree that i'm operating off of extrapolation for my explanation of why i think it should work. but i would also point out that you're stuck going beyond the rules in your assumption that the training referred to in the griffin description is the adept talent (which definitely does not work as described) and not mundane training that should last indefinitely, as well as your assumption that regular griffins have the exact same problem that jungle griffins have in spite of the description suggesting that this is a major difference between the two.
It is not that you can't train your Griffin yourself, you just have to plan ahead. Griffins are 5th circle challenges. So a party of 4th or higher might be able to quest to find a mated pair with eggs or hatch-lings. Most Earthdawn games I have been in where the GM actually bothers to track down-time have a surprisingly lot of it (depending upon how much time research takes in your campaigns and how many weapon-smiths a city has that are willing to drop everything and do the party forging many parties spend a whole lot more time in down-time than they do adventuring. Sure you will not be on a Griffin by 5th circle, but it will probably grow up before you know it.Sharkforce wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 6:50 am(i would also make the argument on the basis that it's pretty lame if the only way for a cavalryman to ever get a griffin is to buy one, with no real chance of taming it themselves, when they can tame basically every other suitable mount in existence for themselves if they can find one, but that isn't a rules-based argument; the quest to find and tame a griffin sounds much more exciting than the quest to get enough money to buy one that somebody else tamed for you)
Once again, there are no real rules for training an animal young, nor for any training that does not disappear after a few months, but we do know that such training does exist, so each GM can feel free to invent his own. My house rule is that the character needs to keep it "trained" during it's entire adolescence and then the training becomes permanent. Others could reasonably vary.Sharkforce wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 6:50 amparticularly since the extensive and intense training in question does not match up in any way with how the talent works. there is no way to do months of training with the talent. or, really, any actual training at all. whatever the adept did is erased in an instant if they personally don't retrain the animal, and then since the training is gone there is no way to give it back the ability to act as a mount that it already had. the description only makes sense if it is talking about non-magical training.
I don't think a griffin being not suitable to be a mount unless trained young has anything whatsoever, even a tiny little bit, to do with what the magic can do, nor of "magically gifted abilities". If a totally untrained Griffin wanted to let you strap a saddle to it's back and to carry you, the two of you could probably manage. The problem is that it does not want to! It flat out refuses to! Animal Bond and Dominate Beast specifically address that they don't work well if the animal is being forced to do something it really strongly does not want to do, and the creature description of Griffins says adults don't take to mount training.Sharkforce wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 6:50 amand from there, we know that those griffins are potentially capable of learning the task. then why couldn't they be magically gifted with that ability for a limited time when they could be magically gifted with any number of other abilities? again, you're not really teaching them how to do anything. when the magical connection is lost, they go from knowing exactly how to perform the task to not knowing it at all. the question of what kind of training they need is irrelevant; whatever you're doing, it certainly looks like training, but it is very different. it can be dispelled instantly, for example. arguably it only works while the adept is conscious. the animal has not genuinely been trained, it has been given a way to draw on the adept's magic to perform a task it should by all rights not understand how to do.
I agree, we don't have to resolve anything about the Jungle Griffin, which "no jungle griffin has ever permitted a Namegiver to sit on its back".Sharkforce wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 6:50 amonly one type of griffin refuses to permit people to sit on its back though. specifically, the type that is not being asked about. instead, we are talking about the type of griffin that is in direct contrast to those ones. nothing says that regular griffins refuse to let anyone sit on their back, so that's not a problem we have to resolve.
I tend to think that this means that in order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training.Griffin from the GM Guide wrote:In order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training.
In the absence of a GM implementing a house rule, that seems to me to be the Alpha and the Omega of this topic.Griffin from the GM Guide wrote:In order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Thu May 16, 2019 10:41 am
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Thu May 16, 2019 6:50 am
But that does not work for Jungle Griffins. If you train a common griffin young, it can be trained to be used as a mount. if you don't train it young, it can't be used as a mount. A jungle griffin will not put up with being used as a mount under any circumstance, even if the training occurs when they are young.In order for a griffin to be used as a mount, it must be captured young and subjected to extensive and intense training,
CODE:
Normal Griffin Jungle GriffinWill serve as mount if trained young: Yes NoWill serve as mount if trained as an adult: No No
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Thu May 16, 2019 4:13 am
Statistics:Posted by Sharkforce — Wed May 15, 2019 8:01 pm
Who defines what mistreatment is? The animal does (or the GM, as guided by the rulebook). If all adult griffins define, on first principals, that any attempt to climb on it's back or train it to be a mount, is mistreatment, than the training will not and can not work. Because each time you try to train it, the Animal Bond rating goes down. And if you attempt to continue the activity, it plummets.Animal Bond Talent description wrote: As a result, mistreatment ... can offset the talent’s effects, worsening the animal’s attitude towards the character. If an animal companion’s attitude drops below Friendly, talents or abilities that target animal companions will no longer work.
Statistics:Posted by ChrisDDickey — Wed May 15, 2019 11:31 am