The bonus, a new design space, is that Forge Arcana could be restricted for use on Matrix objects, meaning that only spells cast through that matrix receive the bonus. That's interesting and flavorful, adds a more concrete visual to it (the Weaponsmith strengthens the True Pattern of the Matrix Object, allowing it to focus astral energy more effectively, resulting in improved Effect), and increases the cost factor (magicians have to improve each object). The down side is that it can never be used to improve Talents, which is going to be the lion's share of matrices that a magician likely has.
The possible confusion, if we DO NOT want to use the previously mentioned design space, is that players may assume that that is the result, even if it's not the intent. Knack description specifically addressing this could help, but given the discussion over in another thread where people are reading RAW as allowing multiple Wounds per hit while I think it's fairly clear that it is one Wound per hit, I'm not keen on even a hint of ambiguity.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:03 am
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Tattered Rags wrote:The concept, and the specific use of "foci," brings to mind foci in Shadowrun. They are items of specific intent (such as increasing magic power, etc.) and might be a good source for ideas on how to apply this concept to Earthdawn.
While a foci might be useful if it were built upon, I was really just looking for something to attach the effect to rather than building up something substantially new. "Foci" in other universes tend to add a lot of things that I don't think belong in ED, or that we want, removal of ingredients being a primary example.Technically, we already have a good attachment point: the grimoire. An Adept can only have one grimoire (they may be carrying others, but only one counts as "their" grimoire), so that'd be a logical place to put this effect. HOWEVER, and this is a pretty significant however, I'm afraid it would add more confusion than help because there are already rules for casting FROM the grimoire. Attaching this effect there might lead people to believe the benefit is restrict to grimoire casting, which isn't the intent, grimoire casting already gets a native bump with the extra success.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:45 pm
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Dougansf wrote:I think it might make more sense as a Forge Weapon Knack around Rank 6.
Another great point. Not sure why I jumped to a new Talent. If you squint, I think you could see this as a knack for Forge Weapon. Even if isn't right and tight, still probably better than a completely new Talent.My personal preference would still be to have it as Warden tier for my previous reasons, but I think more than anything, that's really just personal preference. I don't think there's anything wrong placing it at Journeyman.
I'll take a look at the spells in the PG and think on wording. "Effect Step" is I think only going to catch a handful of other spells but I agree, finding a way to limit it to damage is more in keeping, especially if it is a knack to Forge Weapon. Maybe be enough to say "spell damage Step" but that could also catch spells that use terms other than Effect Step for damage, which could be worse. An example here is stuff that is "Circle + N" which scales much more slowly and can't benefit from Willforce but IS used for damage step in some cases.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:38 pm
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I especially like this because it seems (from limited exposure to 4E) that casters damage output took a significant reduction, to allow them to become more Controller-based.
I think it might make more sense as a Forge Weapon Knack around Rank 6.
Statistics:Posted by Dougansf — Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:59 pm
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Remember that Forge Weapon works only for weapon damage and if you want to give mages sink for resources it should do the same. So bonus only to DMG spells. Effect step would be to versatile in my opinion but again - It's only my opinion
Statistics:Posted by Kosmit — Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:46 pm
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Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:25 am
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Thread Items don't fill this roll. First, they require LP. Second, they aren't laser-focused like the Forge Talents are; i.e., Thread Items scatter multiple benefits rather than being completely (or even near-completely) devoted to a single bonus or Thread Rank improvement. Third, they don't scale as high as the Forge Talents - Forge Weapon can easily stack a bonus of 7-8 before a GM likely considers high Rank in the Talent scarce; 7-8 Rank Thread Items, even if they were laser focused on a single thing, are going to be exceptionally rare (and higher cost tier in LP).
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:45 am
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(I always look to existing mechanics when trying crazy stuff. Making talents/spell effects into Thread items is a fun pastime.)
Statistics:Posted by Telarus — Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:28 am
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I'd personally be okay with Forge Arcana providing a bonus to Effect Step (needs to specifically be Step to limit it to rolls, thereby preventing it from bleeding into spells that can target up to Effect creatures and such). That would keep it more inline with Forge Weapon, which improves damage. However, I got the feeling people would be less willing to accept a Talent that enhances spell damage versus a Talent that just effectively helps magicians get their spell off the ground faster and/or land on target better.
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:06 am
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But...
Foci is not that nad idea although bonuses should be low to not surpass thread items.
Statistics:Posted by Kosmit — Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:56 am
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What do people think about a Weaponsmith Talent called something along the lines of Forge Arcana that acts as a mirror to Forge Weapon/Armor but for either/both of Threadweaving and/or Spellcasting?
Spellcasting focii aren't really a thing in Earthdawn, but that isn't to say they COULDN'T be. Forge Arcana would fit in that niche, allowing magicians to essentially craft a focus out of either a mundane object or Thread Item. There'd need to be some extra mechanics described that effectively limit each magician to using a single focus at any given point.
Threadweaving bonuses would be a bit dicier as this Talent has a lot of uses beyond Spellcasting. Maybe there's nothing wrong with that as, barring interesting uses imposed by the GM, this talent really only exists for Thread Item threadweaving for non-magician Disciplines, and that's mostly just a time sink performed daily in downtime until it succeeds. However, there's an easy enough fix: the Forge Arcana text explicitly states that the bonus only applies when performing Threadweaving when preparing spells for Spellcasting.
Basically, I've always found it disappointing that magicians don't have a money sink for improvement. Pre-ED4, spells could be that sink: "gotta catch 'em all" with a "no LP for spells" optional rule meant that a magician could just keep buying up spells. However, that option is gone with ED4. Aside from that, that's just a new way to use existing resources rather than a way to make your existing resources better. Forge Arcana is the logical peg to fit in that hole, although it would require the extra focus scaffolding.
I'd make this a Warden tier optional Talent. Warden is logical: we get Forge Weapon in Novice, then Forge Armor in Journeyman, so Forge Arcana makes sense at Warden. This also hamstrings availability: readily accessible Weaponsmith vendors of Warden tier are likely few and far between, meaning that Adepts either need a companion of that tier or have an in with a sufficiently advanced society that employs one, and with that scarcity, it can have a higher cost curve than the the Forge talents (to help limit how many bonuses Adepts are actually likely to get from the Talent). As an optional Talent, this further reduces how often the Talent likely exists in the wild, and it makes it more simple for tables that want to slip it into their Weaponsmith Discipline portfolio (whereas changing Discipline Talents should not be done lightly in the slightest). This would also be the time to discuss it as a community - ED4 Warden+ doesn't technically exist yet, so having this idea as a community-created thing for people to use out of the gate means that tables wouldn't have to retroactively add it later if they think it's interesting.
What do you think?
Statistics:Posted by The Undying — Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:50 pm
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